[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
Vicente Bortone
vincebrc at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 09:27:36 AKST 2019
I wonder now if possible to do precision aerobatics with drones.
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:19 PM Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> I should add that my comments were not specifically directed toward Mike
> Harrison's proposal . . . . . some changes may have a boost in some areas.
> But in medical terms I think it is about improving the quality of the life
> we have left, not extending it.
>
> The increase in SPA activities is encouraging, but who is doing it? Is it
> all younger newcomers?
>
> Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 1/3/19, Curt Oberg <obergc at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
> To: "'Bob Kane'" <getterflash at yahoo.com>, "'General pattern discussion'"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 12:07 PM
>
> Don't you just hate it when someone says out
> loud the thoughts that are in your head that you're afraid
> to throw out on the table. I fear that Mr. Kane may be
> right in the long run, sadly. I'm afraid that this
> rule change may actually have a negative impact in that it
> may chase out those already flying 2M planes in Intermediate
> who are not ready, and may never be ready to jump to
> Advanced.
> Curt Oberg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
> On Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02
> AM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
> for a pattern plane...
>
> Call me a naysayer, but I don't think
> there is a dam thing we can do to stop the decline. We
> might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO. It is
> impacting every facet of the hobby. Brick and mortar
> hobby shops are all but gone, those that are still surviving
> are not doing so on airplane sales. Companies are going
> under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to aging
> membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc.
> There is not enough new blood getting into the sport.
> All this at a time when it has never been easier or cheaper
> to put a competitive airplane in the air. The signs are all
> there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending
> doom of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?
>
> I am going to enjoy it while I can.
> Back to the cave.
>
> Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via
> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
> for a pattern plane...
> To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>,
> "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55
> AM
>
> #yiv2223723423
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> #yiv2223723423 I have read the
> discussions here
> with considerable interest. The
> decline in pattern has
> been steady and substantial.
> There are a number of
> indicators for this. I have
> submitted a rule proposal to
> encourage participation in this
> event. I would strongly
> encourage you all to contact your
> contest board member to
> pass this rule change proposal.
> you can type AMA rules
> change proposals and read for
> yourselves. I recommend you
> do that and read ALL of it before
> ripping it up. I have
> talked to a number of newcomers or
> those that would compete
> if it weren’t so expensive,etc and
> have based the proposal
> on that. everything I have read
> here supports the spirit
> and intent of the proposal. It
> would be a very healthy
> rules change for the event.
> Mike From: NSRCA-discussion
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
> PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
> for a pattern plane... Bill-
> Have at it. If it helps
> promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt-
> lucky man, even with
> those tree landings 😉Hank- my first
> pattern
> contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite
> Headmaster with a Fox
> .40, and I was dead last by a looooong
> way. None of it to do
> with my plane, just my lack of
> ability. My following 2
> ‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks
> Acromaster and a
> Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the
> red Bud Light scheme
> too). Did I win with those, nope, but
> again, cause of lack
> of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t
> until I really started
> to focus on my flying and practice did
> I see better results.
> True that this also came along the
> same time I got a pattern
> plane, but even that design was a
> ‘73 design, a year
> before I was born lol. My brother flew
> an Ugly Stick in the
> 1988 Nats and always out scored me on
> take-offs and landings
> cause he did that better than I did.
> My first TOC in 1994, I flew
> what was considered a small plane at
> 103” and a 70cc twin.
> I ended up 6th without the plane bonus
> and did the warm-ups
> in the finals. At that point my skill
> was taking over and I
> was out flying my planes.I flew with a
> 5UAP Futaba
> radio with no expo or mixes for years
> before getting my
> first computer radio, and funny enough
> only used 5 channels
> for a few years after getting it too
> lol. No expo, no
> mixes... just atv/end-points and
> trims. Here locally we’ve had many
> non-pattern planes competing over the
> years. Extra .40, foam
> Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna,
> Intruder, small
> Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare,
> Kaos, Leader, Stick
> .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I
> can’t think of at the
> moment. A lot of these have won or
> placed in the top 3 in
> their class and the pilots seemed to
> have fun when it was
> all said and done. I’m not saying
> this is always the case,
> but as we know, it’s up to all of
> us, bottom to top, to
> keep things fair and fun. Two
> things I had trouble with
> coming up the ranks was accepting any
> low scores I got in a
> flight and not being afraid to give
> scores using the 0-10
> scale. I’ve probably been called
> names after pilots see
> the scores from me and compare them to
> another judge. I’m
> not a perfect judge, but I do think I
> am a fair and
> consistent judge. I will give Andrew
> Jesky a 1 if he flies
> what I think is a 1 in front of me
> (haven’t seen it yet),
> or a 10 to RVP (have done it before
> and will miss the
> opportunity to do again). Anyone is
> capable of flying any
> end of the spectrum during a flight at
> any time. If a pilot
> is honest with themselves and can see
> the mistakes (the
> hardest part), then there is no
> frustration in the scores
> given, just in the mistakes made.
> That’s where being on
> your own can hurt. I was on my own in
> practice until I moved
> to FL and was able to fly with Joe and
> Ryan during practice.
> As it turns out, it was also a bad
> thing cause when we
> judged each other, we knew the
> mistakes that most likely
> would/could be made. Generally we
> found that we scored each
> other harder than others just cause of
> that knowledge. I
> think that also made us better pilots,
> especially in those
> rounds lol.
> Sorry for
> the rambling. Happy New Year and now
> it’s time for me to
> go glue my battery tray together for
> my Epic. Strapping it
> to my landing gear former for the
> first 3 flights was ok for
> testing, but it’s time to practice
> on Thursday with our
> newest Jr member Kal.
> JasonJas iP
> On Dec 31,
> 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via
> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:Hi
> Yep, I
> agree. Back in the late 70's I
> flew "A"
> pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel
> case Super Tigre
> 60. Even took 3rd once, I could
> take off and land really
> well - the rest, well I brought the
> airplane home in less
> than 3 pieces.
> I have been
> lurking on this list and have been a
> member for several
> years, hoping for the time when I
> could get into pattern.
> Over the years I have seen all too
> many of those I call
> Elitists belittling others who don't
> have, want, or
> cannot afford the equipment that the
> FAI flyers
> have.
> I thank all of
> you who took the time to
> respond. My comment is really
> that if we are to build pattern as a
> mainstream interest
> again we need a way to get the average
> flyer, that has any
> interest in competition, to
> start. Once they have
> participated in a few contests and met
> the other guys I
> believe it could take off. In my
> area there are no pattern
> flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace
> Modelers. I believe
> there are a few in the SAM's club and
> there are none I
> am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or
> El Dorado Hills (I am
> a member). This covers well over
> a thousand
> flyers.
> But
> thanks again for the good
> conversation. A lot more
> interesting than flying down wind😒
> HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> on behalf of Phil Spelt via
> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
> PM
> To: John Ford; General pattern
> discussion
> Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern
> plane...
> Thank you for the really, REALLY
> good comments, John.
> The same has been my experience over
> the past 30 years of
> pattern flying.
> I have seen almost no
> "elitists" in pattern. In fact,
> I can not think
> of even one, right now, thinking
> back... Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific
> Leader Member
> SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC
> Emeritus
> Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v
> (865)
> 604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10
> PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote: Hank,
> You make some
> good points, but I have to jump in on
> this
> one. In
> the past 10 years, I've flown
> "competitively"
> at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4
> countries. In the
> previous 20 years to that, maybe half
> as many
> venues. Over that 30-year period,
> contrary to being laughed off the
> field, I've observed
> many people show up with everything
> from a 40-sized sport
> plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing
> some significant wear
> and tear, requiring some Saturday
> morning surgery (with
> donated time and materials) from more
> experienced flyers to
> allow the new person to put in their
> rounds. I've even
> seem one senior competitor, unable to
> fix the newcomer's
> plane, offer one of his spare planes
> for the newcomer to
> fly.
> Yes, we
> have all seen one or two crassly
> snobby individuals who
> looked down their noses...not only at
> lesser planes, but at
> the entire Sportsman and Intermediate
> classes...but I've
> never personally come across a
> generally-present
> "Elitist" group that dampens the
> enjoyment of the
> sport for others, regardless of
> experience level or plane
> choice. In fact, the folks who tend to
> be
> financially-fortunate and who show up
> with the latest and
> greatest planes tend to be the most
> generous with their time
> and help for newcomers, or for anyone
> else. There are always
> a few exceptions, but it not the
> general rule...that I have
> personally seen. There is
> always someone on
> email lists such as this one (and
> others) that will play
> armchair expert and start describing
> what plane is required
> for this class and that class. It's
> not good
> information, to be polite about it
> It's ALWAYS been
> about the pilot and how much effort is
> devoted to
> practice...it's NEVER been about the
> plane. If you
> examine the NSRCA contest results and
> look for those same
> armchair experts, you'll usually find
> that they
> haven't flown a contest in decades.
> Again, exceptions
> exist, but anyone can win any class
> with a battle-worn
> 10-year old plane regardless of glow
> or electric, or with a
> smaller plane. I've seen it done in
> front of me several
> times. So has everyone else who goes
> to
> contests.
> As long
> as your plane can climb to the top of
> the box, it's good
> enough..just practice! You are in the
> hunt! JohnNSRCA 1673
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
> PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion
> < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote: Hi
> Guys
> Thanks for
> addressing this issue. If we are
> truly down to 400
> members, and want to stick around, I
> believe bringing in new
> blood is pivotal.
> I'm at
> work so I can't write all I want but I
> would like to
> dial expectations down a little
> more.
> I wanted to
> get started in pattern a few years
> back. I bought an ARF
> pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about
> 48 inch WS). I also
> bought a Swallow? for a 120 to
> 140. Life got in the way so
> I never finished them. I gave
> the smaller one to my son
> and he did some work then got a job in
> San Diego so the
> airplane sits in my shop.
> If I am lucky
> I will convert both to electric and
> get started. (I've
> been flying models since 1958 and RC
> since 1970 but mainly
> just for sport and socializing).
>
> Today you can
> get a good electric motor, ESC, and
> batteries for way cheap
> so getting these air-frames in the air
> is very feasible for
> anyone that thinks they may be
> interested in
> pattern.
> Why can't
> a flyer get one of these ARF's to get
> their feet wet and
> enter a couple of contests? If
> they like it they will
> invariably move up to what the
> Elitists call competitive
> equipment. My concern is that if
> someone showed up at a
> contest with one of these airplanes
> they would be laughed
> off the field.
> When I started
> playing golf 25 years ago or so I had
> a used set of clubs.
> I played terribly, like when I learned
> to fly pre-buddy
> box. When I got better I built
> my own clubs via
> Golfsmith. Now I have a nice set
> of Pings. Still play
> badly but look good getting out of the
> car 😉
> Do any of you
> think I am on a useful track?
> Hank From: NSRCA-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> on behalf of Tjpritchett via
> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent:
> Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
> To: Curt
> Oberg; General pattern discussion
> Subject:
> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a
> pattern plane..
> Good perspective, an even
> better goal, and an excellent
> wife!! You’ve got it made
> Curt!!
> (See you in Andersonville!)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13
> PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion
> < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > When I
> started flying pattern back in the mid
> 70's, starting
> from scratch you could get into
> pattern flying with a very
> competitive rig for about $750. One
> hundred for a plane kit,
> $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a
> ProLine Competition 6
> radio including battery and servos,
> and about $150 for
> retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract
> servos, finishing
> materials, etc. Of course you
> then had to build the plane
> first (which is probably becoming a
> lost art). Relatively
> speaking, considering inflation and
> the differential between
> salaries then and now, the cost of a
> present day, ARF
> pattern plane, set up ready to fly is
> probably very close in
> a percentage of your disposable
> income. It helps immensely
> when you have a wife like mine who
> encourages me buy the
> best equipment out there for my
> planes. Every time I
> hesitate to spend money on the hobby,
> she always tells me
> that if I don't spend the money, my
> son will when
> I'm gone. My cost for enjoying
> pattern flying would go
> down somewhat if I would quit landing
> in the top of the
> trees.
> >
> > Curt
> Oberg
> >
> >
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
> On Behalf Of Jas S via
> NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018
> 7:15 PM
>
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
> for
> a pattern plane...
> >
> > There’s always been talk about
> how
> expensive pattern is. All disciplines
> and hobbies are
> expensive, it’s just a choice one
> makes as to how much
> they want to spend. I’ve not had a
> ‘top of the line
> $$$$’ model since I was a teen when
> I wasn’t paying for
> my planes. Back then I was lucky
> enough to get the best
> planes on the market. Ten Plus planes
> back then were as good
> as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and
> relative cost was
> about the same. Since being on my own,
> I’ve had more
> average planes, price point at least.
> Sponsorship allows me
> to outfit my planes with what I
> consider some of the best
> equipment, but even then I don’t
> bling out my planes at
> every turn.
> >
> >
> Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017
> Nats in Blytheville,
> AR:
> > Plane: AJ Acuity $949
> > Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
> > OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
> > Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s
> $220
> > Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s,
> 171’s
> & 175 $950 now 🤭
> > Receiver:
> Futaba 7006 $100 now
> > Falcon Spinner
> and Prop: $160
> > Total works out to
> about: $2939
> >
> >
> Most hardware is stock from the kit.
> Linkages, tail wheel
> assembly, sticky velcro hook side,
> axles, wheels. I changed
> the cowl screws, motor mounting screws
> (shorter) and velcro
> strap for the battery.
> >
> > I could have used, and not hurt
> my
> performance any, this equipment:
> >
> Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155
> ($430) and saved -$520
>
> > Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and
> saved
> -$6
> > Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved
> -$155
> > Gator spinner ($18) and saved
> -$42
> > APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
> > Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186)
> and saved
> $34
> > Shulman Aviation 6v regulator
> ($20) +$20
> > Total saved: $658
> >
> > So my Acuity set-up
> could be done for just about $2144.
> This is assuming you
> have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m
> sized plane.
> >
> > Now my Epic set-up
> from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a
> different price point:
>
> > CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price,
> I
> think Epic + was less)
> > Brenner Contra:
> $1000 last year
> > Kontronic Motor: $500
>
> > Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
> > Subtract $60 for the Falcon
> spinner
> > Futaba servos/receiver,
> ThunderPower
> batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the
> same prices as Acuity.
>
> >
> > I usually use
> 2mm carbon rod for pushrods,
> Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU
> links, MPI 2.25 wheels.
> >
> > Total around $6000
> >
>
> > Again, using equipment that’s
> not
> ‘top of the line’, I can save
> about $2400. Most of the
> difference from the Acuity savings is
> swapping the contra
> for a Himax set-up.
> >
> > And the Yang/Oxai you can add
> another
> $~2500 to the total for a top-shelf
> set-up.
> >
> > All this being said,
> the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern
> are:
> > Any sport/pattern capable plane
> they are
> comfortable flying.
> > Any second hand
> pattern plane they can afford.
> > A good
> friend with a spare plane they will
> loan you 😁
> >
> > Have a safe Happy New Year to
> everyone and
> always land wheels down 😉
> >
> > Jason
> > Jas iP
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
> >
> >
>
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>
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>
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Vicente "Vince" Bortone
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