[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
Wayne Galigan
wayg2013 at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 09:37:48 AKST 2019
Vicente.... have you not watched quad racing on a closed circuit... those
guys flip, roll, tumble to get threw the obstacle course.
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 12:27 PM Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org wrote:
> I wonder now if possible to do precision aerobatics with drones.
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:19 PM Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> I should add that my comments were not specifically directed toward Mike
>> Harrison's proposal . . . . . some changes may have a boost in some areas.
>> But in medical terms I think it is about improving the quality of the life
>> we have left, not extending it.
>>
>> The increase in SPA activities is encouraging, but who is doing it? Is
>> it all younger newcomers?
>>
>> Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Thu, 1/3/19, Curt Oberg <obergc at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
>> To: "'Bob Kane'" <getterflash at yahoo.com>, "'General pattern
>> discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 12:07 PM
>>
>> Don't you just hate it when someone says out
>> loud the thoughts that are in your head that you're afraid
>> to throw out on the table. I fear that Mr. Kane may be
>> right in the long run, sadly. I'm afraid that this
>> rule change may actually have a negative impact in that it
>> may chase out those already flying 2M planes in Intermediate
>> who are not ready, and may never be ready to jump to
>> Advanced.
>> Curt Oberg
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
>> On Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02
>> AM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
>> for a pattern plane...
>>
>> Call me a naysayer, but I don't think
>> there is a dam thing we can do to stop the decline. We
>> might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO. It is
>> impacting every facet of the hobby. Brick and mortar
>> hobby shops are all but gone, those that are still surviving
>> are not doing so on airplane sales. Companies are going
>> under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to aging
>> membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc.
>> There is not enough new blood getting into the sport.
>> All this at a time when it has never been easier or cheaper
>> to put a competitive airplane in the air. The signs are all
>> there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending
>> doom of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?
>>
>> I am going to enjoy it while I can.
>> Back to the cave.
>>
>> Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via
>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
>> for a pattern plane...
>> To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>,
>> "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55
>> AM
>>
>> #yiv2223723423
>> #yiv2223723423 --
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>> #yiv2223723423 I have read the
>> discussions here
>> with considerable interest. The
>> decline in pattern has
>> been steady and substantial.
>> There are a number of
>> indicators for this. I have
>> submitted a rule proposal to
>> encourage participation in this
>> event. I would strongly
>> encourage you all to contact your
>> contest board member to
>> pass this rule change proposal.
>> you can type AMA rules
>> change proposals and read for
>> yourselves. I recommend you
>> do that and read ALL of it before
>> ripping it up. I have
>> talked to a number of newcomers or
>> those that would compete
>> if it weren’t so expensive,etc and
>> have based the proposal
>> on that. everything I have read
>> here supports the spirit
>> and intent of the proposal. It
>> would be a very healthy
>> rules change for the event.
>> Mike From: NSRCA-discussion
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
>> PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
>> for a pattern plane... Bill-
>> Have at it. If it helps
>> promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt-
>> lucky man, even with
>> those tree landings 😉Hank- my first
>> pattern
>> contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite
>> Headmaster with a Fox
>> .40, and I was dead last by a looooong
>> way. None of it to do
>> with my plane, just my lack of
>> ability. My following 2
>> ‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks
>> Acromaster and a
>> Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the
>> red Bud Light scheme
>> too). Did I win with those, nope, but
>> again, cause of lack
>> of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t
>> until I really started
>> to focus on my flying and practice did
>> I see better results.
>> True that this also came along the
>> same time I got a pattern
>> plane, but even that design was a
>> ‘73 design, a year
>> before I was born lol. My brother flew
>> an Ugly Stick in the
>> 1988 Nats and always out scored me on
>> take-offs and landings
>> cause he did that better than I did.
>> My first TOC in 1994, I flew
>> what was considered a small plane at
>> 103” and a 70cc twin.
>> I ended up 6th without the plane bonus
>> and did the warm-ups
>> in the finals. At that point my skill
>> was taking over and I
>> was out flying my planes.I flew with a
>> 5UAP Futaba
>> radio with no expo or mixes for years
>> before getting my
>> first computer radio, and funny enough
>> only used 5 channels
>> for a few years after getting it too
>> lol. No expo, no
>> mixes... just atv/end-points and
>> trims. Here locally we’ve had many
>> non-pattern planes competing over the
>> years. Extra .40, foam
>> Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna,
>> Intruder, small
>> Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare,
>> Kaos, Leader, Stick
>> .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I
>> can’t think of at the
>> moment. A lot of these have won or
>> placed in the top 3 in
>> their class and the pilots seemed to
>> have fun when it was
>> all said and done. I’m not saying
>> this is always the case,
>> but as we know, it’s up to all of
>> us, bottom to top, to
>> keep things fair and fun. Two
>> things I had trouble with
>> coming up the ranks was accepting any
>> low scores I got in a
>> flight and not being afraid to give
>> scores using the 0-10
>> scale. I’ve probably been called
>> names after pilots see
>> the scores from me and compare them to
>> another judge. I’m
>> not a perfect judge, but I do think I
>> am a fair and
>> consistent judge. I will give Andrew
>> Jesky a 1 if he flies
>> what I think is a 1 in front of me
>> (haven’t seen it yet),
>> or a 10 to RVP (have done it before
>> and will miss the
>> opportunity to do again). Anyone is
>> capable of flying any
>> end of the spectrum during a flight at
>> any time. If a pilot
>> is honest with themselves and can see
>> the mistakes (the
>> hardest part), then there is no
>> frustration in the scores
>> given, just in the mistakes made.
>> That’s where being on
>> your own can hurt. I was on my own in
>> practice until I moved
>> to FL and was able to fly with Joe and
>> Ryan during practice.
>> As it turns out, it was also a bad
>> thing cause when we
>> judged each other, we knew the
>> mistakes that most likely
>> would/could be made. Generally we
>> found that we scored each
>> other harder than others just cause of
>> that knowledge. I
>> think that also made us better pilots,
>> especially in those
>> rounds lol.
>> Sorry for
>> the rambling. Happy New Year and now
>> it’s time for me to
>> go glue my battery tray together for
>> my Epic. Strapping it
>> to my landing gear former for the
>> first 3 flights was ok for
>> testing, but it’s time to practice
>> on Thursday with our
>> newest Jr member Kal.
>> JasonJas iP
>> On Dec 31,
>> 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via
>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> wrote:Hi
>> Yep, I
>> agree. Back in the late 70's I
>> flew "A"
>> pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel
>> case Super Tigre
>> 60. Even took 3rd once, I could
>> take off and land really
>> well - the rest, well I brought the
>> airplane home in less
>> than 3 pieces.
>> I have been
>> lurking on this list and have been a
>> member for several
>> years, hoping for the time when I
>> could get into pattern.
>> Over the years I have seen all too
>> many of those I call
>> Elitists belittling others who don't
>> have, want, or
>> cannot afford the equipment that the
>> FAI flyers
>> have.
>> I thank all of
>> you who took the time to
>> respond. My comment is really
>> that if we are to build pattern as a
>> mainstream interest
>> again we need a way to get the average
>> flyer, that has any
>> interest in competition, to
>> start. Once they have
>> participated in a few contests and met
>> the other guys I
>> believe it could take off. In my
>> area there are no pattern
>> flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace
>> Modelers. I believe
>> there are a few in the SAM's club and
>> there are none I
>> am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or
>> El Dorado Hills (I am
>> a member). This covers well over
>> a thousand
>> flyers.
>> But
>> thanks again for the good
>> conversation. A lot more
>> interesting than flying down wind😒
>> HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> on behalf of Phil Spelt via
>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
>> PM
>> To: John Ford; General pattern
>> discussion
>> Subject: Re:
>> [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern
>> plane...
>> Thank you for the really, REALLY
>> good comments, John.
>> The same has been my experience over
>> the past 30 years of
>> pattern flying.
>> I have seen almost no
>> "elitists" in pattern. In fact,
>> I can not think
>> of even one, right now, thinking
>> back... Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific
>> Leader Member
>> SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC
>> Emeritus
>> Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v
>> (865)
>> 604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10
>> PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion
>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> wrote: Hank,
>> You make some
>> good points, but I have to jump in on
>> this
>> one. In
>> the past 10 years, I've flown
>> "competitively"
>> at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4
>> countries. In the
>> previous 20 years to that, maybe half
>> as many
>> venues. Over that 30-year period,
>> contrary to being laughed off the
>> field, I've observed
>> many people show up with everything
>> from a 40-sized sport
>> plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing
>> some significant wear
>> and tear, requiring some Saturday
>> morning surgery (with
>> donated time and materials) from more
>> experienced flyers to
>> allow the new person to put in their
>> rounds. I've even
>> seem one senior competitor, unable to
>> fix the newcomer's
>> plane, offer one of his spare planes
>> for the newcomer to
>> fly.
>> Yes, we
>> have all seen one or two crassly
>> snobby individuals who
>> looked down their noses...not only at
>> lesser planes, but at
>> the entire Sportsman and Intermediate
>> classes...but I've
>> never personally come across a
>> generally-present
>> "Elitist" group that dampens the
>> enjoyment of the
>> sport for others, regardless of
>> experience level or plane
>> choice. In fact, the folks who tend to
>> be
>> financially-fortunate and who show up
>> with the latest and
>> greatest planes tend to be the most
>> generous with their time
>> and help for newcomers, or for anyone
>> else. There are always
>> a few exceptions, but it not the
>> general rule...that I have
>> personally seen. There is
>> always someone on
>> email lists such as this one (and
>> others) that will play
>> armchair expert and start describing
>> what plane is required
>> for this class and that class. It's
>> not good
>> information, to be polite about it
>> It's ALWAYS been
>> about the pilot and how much effort is
>> devoted to
>> practice...it's NEVER been about the
>> plane. If you
>> examine the NSRCA contest results and
>> look for those same
>> armchair experts, you'll usually find
>> that they
>> haven't flown a contest in decades.
>> Again, exceptions
>> exist, but anyone can win any class
>> with a battle-worn
>> 10-year old plane regardless of glow
>> or electric, or with a
>> smaller plane. I've seen it done in
>> front of me several
>> times. So has everyone else who goes
>> to
>> contests.
>> As long
>> as your plane can climb to the top of
>> the box, it's good
>> enough..just practice! You are in the
>> hunt! JohnNSRCA 1673
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
>> PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion
>> < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> wrote: Hi
>> Guys
>> Thanks for
>> addressing this issue. If we are
>> truly down to 400
>> members, and want to stick around, I
>> believe bringing in new
>> blood is pivotal.
>> I'm at
>> work so I can't write all I want but I
>> would like to
>> dial expectations down a little
>> more.
>> I wanted to
>> get started in pattern a few years
>> back. I bought an ARF
>> pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about
>> 48 inch WS). I also
>> bought a Swallow? for a 120 to
>> 140. Life got in the way so
>> I never finished them. I gave
>> the smaller one to my son
>> and he did some work then got a job in
>> San Diego so the
>> airplane sits in my shop.
>> If I am lucky
>> I will convert both to electric and
>> get started. (I've
>> been flying models since 1958 and RC
>> since 1970 but mainly
>> just for sport and socializing).
>>
>> Today you can
>> get a good electric motor, ESC, and
>> batteries for way cheap
>> so getting these air-frames in the air
>> is very feasible for
>> anyone that thinks they may be
>> interested in
>> pattern.
>> Why can't
>> a flyer get one of these ARF's to get
>> their feet wet and
>> enter a couple of contests? If
>> they like it they will
>> invariably move up to what the
>> Elitists call competitive
>> equipment. My concern is that if
>> someone showed up at a
>> contest with one of these airplanes
>> they would be laughed
>> off the field.
>> When I started
>> playing golf 25 years ago or so I had
>> a used set of clubs.
>> I played terribly, like when I learned
>> to fly pre-buddy
>> box. When I got better I built
>> my own clubs via
>> Golfsmith. Now I have a nice set
>> of Pings. Still play
>> badly but look good getting out of the
>> car 😉
>> Do any of you
>> think I am on a useful track?
>> Hank From: NSRCA-discussion
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> on behalf of Tjpritchett via
>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent:
>> Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
>> To: Curt
>> Oberg; General pattern discussion
>> Subject:
>> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a
>> pattern plane..
>> Good perspective, an even
>> better goal, and an excellent
>> wife!! You’ve got it made
>> Curt!!
>> (See you in Andersonville!)
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13
>> PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion
>> < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > When I
>> started flying pattern back in the mid
>> 70's, starting
>> from scratch you could get into
>> pattern flying with a very
>> competitive rig for about $750. One
>> hundred for a plane kit,
>> $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a
>> ProLine Competition 6
>> radio including battery and servos,
>> and about $150 for
>> retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract
>> servos, finishing
>> materials, etc. Of course you
>> then had to build the plane
>> first (which is probably becoming a
>> lost art). Relatively
>> speaking, considering inflation and
>> the differential between
>> salaries then and now, the cost of a
>> present day, ARF
>> pattern plane, set up ready to fly is
>> probably very close in
>> a percentage of your disposable
>> income. It helps immensely
>> when you have a wife like mine who
>> encourages me buy the
>> best equipment out there for my
>> planes. Every time I
>> hesitate to spend money on the hobby,
>> she always tells me
>> that if I don't spend the money, my
>> son will when
>> I'm gone. My cost for enjoying
>> pattern flying would go
>> down somewhat if I would quit landing
>> in the top of the
>> trees.
>> >
>> > Curt
>> Oberg
>> >
>> >
>> -----Original Message-----
>> > From:
>> NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jas S via
>> NSRCA-discussion
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018
>> 7:15 PM
>>
>> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>
>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
>> for
>> a pattern plane...
>> >
>> > There’s always been talk about
>> how
>> expensive pattern is. All disciplines
>> and hobbies are
>> expensive, it’s just a choice one
>> makes as to how much
>> they want to spend. I’ve not had a
>> ‘top of the line
>> $$$$’ model since I was a teen when
>> I wasn’t paying for
>> my planes. Back then I was lucky
>> enough to get the best
>> planes on the market. Ten Plus planes
>> back then were as good
>> as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and
>> relative cost was
>> about the same. Since being on my own,
>> I’ve had more
>> average planes, price point at least.
>> Sponsorship allows me
>> to outfit my planes with what I
>> consider some of the best
>> equipment, but even then I don’t
>> bling out my planes at
>> every turn.
>> >
>> >
>> Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017
>> Nats in Blytheville,
>> AR:
>> > Plane: AJ Acuity $949
>> > Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
>> > OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
>> > Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s
>> $220
>> > Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s,
>> 171’s
>> & 175 $950 now 🤭
>> > Receiver:
>> Futaba 7006 $100 now
>> > Falcon Spinner
>> and Prop: $160
>> > Total works out to
>> about: $2939
>> >
>> >
>> Most hardware is stock from the kit.
>> Linkages, tail wheel
>> assembly, sticky velcro hook side,
>> axles, wheels. I changed
>> the cowl screws, motor mounting screws
>> (shorter) and velcro
>> strap for the battery.
>> >
>> > I could have used, and not hurt
>> my
>> performance any, this equipment:
>> >
>> Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155
>> ($430) and saved -$520
>>
>> > Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and
>> saved
>> -$6
>> > Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved
>> -$155
>> > Gator spinner ($18) and saved
>> -$42
>> > APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
>> > Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186)
>> and saved
>> $34
>> > Shulman Aviation 6v regulator
>> ($20) +$20
>> > Total saved: $658
>> >
>> > So my Acuity set-up
>> could be done for just about $2144.
>> This is assuming you
>> have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m
>> sized plane.
>> >
>> > Now my Epic set-up
>> from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a
>> different price point:
>>
>> > CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price,
>> I
>> think Epic + was less)
>> > Brenner Contra:
>> $1000 last year
>> > Kontronic Motor: $500
>>
>> > Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
>> > Subtract $60 for the Falcon
>> spinner
>> > Futaba servos/receiver,
>> ThunderPower
>> batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the
>> same prices as Acuity.
>>
>> >
>> > I usually use
>> 2mm carbon rod for pushrods,
>> Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU
>> links, MPI 2.25 wheels.
>> >
>> > Total around $6000
>> >
>>
>> > Again, using equipment that’s
>> not
>> ‘top of the line’, I can save
>> about $2400. Most of the
>> difference from the Acuity savings is
>> swapping the contra
>> for a Himax set-up.
>> >
>> > And the Yang/Oxai you can add
>> another
>> $~2500 to the total for a top-shelf
>> set-up.
>> >
>> > All this being said,
>> the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern
>> are:
>> > Any sport/pattern capable plane
>> they are
>> comfortable flying.
>> > Any second hand
>> pattern plane they can afford.
>> > A good
>> friend with a spare plane they will
>> loan you 😁
>> >
>> > Have a safe Happy New Year to
>> everyone and
>> always land wheels down 😉
>> >
>> > Jason
>> > Jas iP
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>
>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>
>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
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> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> _______________________________________________
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