[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
Bob Kane
getterflash at yahoo.com
Thu Jan 3 09:19:27 AKST 2019
I should add that my comments were not specifically directed toward Mike Harrison's proposal . . . . . some changes may have a boost in some areas. But in medical terms I think it is about improving the quality of the life we have left, not extending it.
The increase in SPA activities is encouraging, but who is doing it? Is it all younger newcomers?
Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/3/19, Curt Oberg <obergc at cox.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
To: "'Bob Kane'" <getterflash at yahoo.com>, "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 12:07 PM
Don't you just hate it when someone says out
loud the thoughts that are in your head that you're afraid
to throw out on the table. I fear that Mr. Kane may be
right in the long run, sadly. I'm afraid that this
rule change may actually have a negative impact in that it
may chase out those already flying 2M planes in Intermediate
who are not ready, and may never be ready to jump to
Advanced.
Curt Oberg
-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02
AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
for a pattern plane...
Call me a naysayer, but I don't think
there is a dam thing we can do to stop the decline. We
might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO. It is
impacting every facet of the hobby. Brick and mortar
hobby shops are all but gone, those that are still surviving
are not doing so on airplane sales. Companies are going
under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to aging
membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc.
There is not enough new blood getting into the sport.
All this at a time when it has never been easier or cheaper
to put a competitive airplane in the air. The signs are all
there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending
doom of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?
I am going to enjoy it while I can.
Back to the cave.
Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via
NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote:
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
for a pattern plane...
To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>,
"'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55
AM
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#yiv2223723423 I have read the
discussions here
with considerable interest. The
decline in pattern has
been steady and substantial.
There are a number of
indicators for this. I have
submitted a rule proposal to
encourage participation in this
event. I would strongly
encourage you all to contact your
contest board member to
pass this rule change proposal.
you can type AMA rules
change proposals and read for
yourselves. I recommend you
do that and read ALL of it before
ripping it up. I have
talked to a number of newcomers or
those that would compete
if it weren’t so expensive,etc and
have based the proposal
on that. everything I have read
here supports the spirit
and intent of the proposal. It
would be a very healthy
rules change for the event.
Mike From: NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
On
Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
PM
To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
for a pattern plane... Bill-
Have at it. If it helps
promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt-
lucky man, even with
those tree landings 😉Hank- my first
pattern
contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite
Headmaster with a Fox
.40, and I was dead last by a looooong
way. None of it to do
with my plane, just my lack of
ability. My following 2
‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks
Acromaster and a
Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the
red Bud Light scheme
too). Did I win with those, nope, but
again, cause of lack
of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t
until I really started
to focus on my flying and practice did
I see better results.
True that this also came along the
same time I got a pattern
plane, but even that design was a
‘73 design, a year
before I was born lol. My brother flew
an Ugly Stick in the
1988 Nats and always out scored me on
take-offs and landings
cause he did that better than I did.
My first TOC in 1994, I flew
what was considered a small plane at
103” and a 70cc twin.
I ended up 6th without the plane bonus
and did the warm-ups
in the finals. At that point my skill
was taking over and I
was out flying my planes.I flew with a
5UAP Futaba
radio with no expo or mixes for years
before getting my
first computer radio, and funny enough
only used 5 channels
for a few years after getting it too
lol. No expo, no
mixes... just atv/end-points and
trims. Here locally we’ve had many
non-pattern planes competing over the
years. Extra .40, foam
Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna,
Intruder, small
Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare,
Kaos, Leader, Stick
.40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I
can’t think of at the
moment. A lot of these have won or
placed in the top 3 in
their class and the pilots seemed to
have fun when it was
all said and done. I’m not saying
this is always the case,
but as we know, it’s up to all of
us, bottom to top, to
keep things fair and fun. Two
things I had trouble with
coming up the ranks was accepting any
low scores I got in a
flight and not being afraid to give
scores using the 0-10
scale. I’ve probably been called
names after pilots see
the scores from me and compare them to
another judge. I’m
not a perfect judge, but I do think I
am a fair and
consistent judge. I will give Andrew
Jesky a 1 if he flies
what I think is a 1 in front of me
(haven’t seen it yet),
or a 10 to RVP (have done it before
and will miss the
opportunity to do again). Anyone is
capable of flying any
end of the spectrum during a flight at
any time. If a pilot
is honest with themselves and can see
the mistakes (the
hardest part), then there is no
frustration in the scores
given, just in the mistakes made.
That’s where being on
your own can hurt. I was on my own in
practice until I moved
to FL and was able to fly with Joe and
Ryan during practice.
As it turns out, it was also a bad
thing cause when we
judged each other, we knew the
mistakes that most likely
would/could be made. Generally we
found that we scored each
other harder than others just cause of
that knowledge. I
think that also made us better pilots,
especially in those
rounds lol.
Sorry for
the rambling. Happy New Year and now
it’s time for me to
go glue my battery tray together for
my Epic. Strapping it
to my landing gear former for the
first 3 flights was ok for
testing, but it’s time to practice
on Thursday with our
newest Jr member Kal.
JasonJas iP
On Dec 31,
2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via
NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote:Hi
Yep, I
agree. Back in the late 70's I
flew "A"
pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel
case Super Tigre
60. Even took 3rd once, I could
take off and land really
well - the rest, well I brought the
airplane home in less
than 3 pieces.
I have been
lurking on this list and have been a
member for several
years, hoping for the time when I
could get into pattern.
Over the years I have seen all too
many of those I call
Elitists belittling others who don't
have, want, or
cannot afford the equipment that the
FAI flyers
have.
I thank all of
you who took the time to
respond. My comment is really
that if we are to build pattern as a
mainstream interest
again we need a way to get the average
flyer, that has any
interest in competition, to
start. Once they have
participated in a few contests and met
the other guys I
believe it could take off. In my
area there are no pattern
flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace
Modelers. I believe
there are a few in the SAM's club and
there are none I
am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or
El Dorado Hills (I am
a member). This covers well over
a thousand
flyers.
But
thanks again for the good
conversation. A lot more
interesting than flying down wind😒
HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
on behalf of Phil Spelt via
NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
PM
To: John Ford; General pattern
discussion
Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern
plane...
Thank you for the really, REALLY
good comments, John.
The same has been my experience over
the past 30 years of
pattern flying.
I have seen almost no
"elitists" in pattern. In fact,
I can not think
of even one, right now, thinking
back... Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific
Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC
Emeritus
Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v
(865)
604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10
PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote: Hank,
You make some
good points, but I have to jump in on
this
one. In
the past 10 years, I've flown
"competitively"
at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4
countries. In the
previous 20 years to that, maybe half
as many
venues. Over that 30-year period,
contrary to being laughed off the
field, I've observed
many people show up with everything
from a 40-sized sport
plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing
some significant wear
and tear, requiring some Saturday
morning surgery (with
donated time and materials) from more
experienced flyers to
allow the new person to put in their
rounds. I've even
seem one senior competitor, unable to
fix the newcomer's
plane, offer one of his spare planes
for the newcomer to
fly.
Yes, we
have all seen one or two crassly
snobby individuals who
looked down their noses...not only at
lesser planes, but at
the entire Sportsman and Intermediate
classes...but I've
never personally come across a
generally-present
"Elitist" group that dampens the
enjoyment of the
sport for others, regardless of
experience level or plane
choice. In fact, the folks who tend to
be
financially-fortunate and who show up
with the latest and
greatest planes tend to be the most
generous with their time
and help for newcomers, or for anyone
else. There are always
a few exceptions, but it not the
general rule...that I have
personally seen. There is
always someone on
email lists such as this one (and
others) that will play
armchair expert and start describing
what plane is required
for this class and that class. It's
not good
information, to be polite about it
It's ALWAYS been
about the pilot and how much effort is
devoted to
practice...it's NEVER been about the
plane. If you
examine the NSRCA contest results and
look for those same
armchair experts, you'll usually find
that they
haven't flown a contest in decades.
Again, exceptions
exist, but anyone can win any class
with a battle-worn
10-year old plane regardless of glow
or electric, or with a
smaller plane. I've seen it done in
front of me several
times. So has everyone else who goes
to
contests.
As long
as your plane can climb to the top of
the box, it's good
enough..just practice! You are in the
hunt! JohnNSRCA 1673
On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion
< nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote: Hi
Guys
Thanks for
addressing this issue. If we are
truly down to 400
members, and want to stick around, I
believe bringing in new
blood is pivotal.
I'm at
work so I can't write all I want but I
would like to
dial expectations down a little
more.
I wanted to
get started in pattern a few years
back. I bought an ARF
pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about
48 inch WS). I also
bought a Swallow? for a 120 to
140. Life got in the way so
I never finished them. I gave
the smaller one to my son
and he did some work then got a job in
San Diego so the
airplane sits in my shop.
If I am lucky
I will convert both to electric and
get started. (I've
been flying models since 1958 and RC
since 1970 but mainly
just for sport and socializing).
Today you can
get a good electric motor, ESC, and
batteries for way cheap
so getting these air-frames in the air
is very feasible for
anyone that thinks they may be
interested in
pattern.
Why can't
a flyer get one of these ARF's to get
their feet wet and
enter a couple of contests? If
they like it they will
invariably move up to what the
Elitists call competitive
equipment. My concern is that if
someone showed up at a
contest with one of these airplanes
they would be laughed
off the field.
When I started
playing golf 25 years ago or so I had
a used set of clubs.
I played terribly, like when I learned
to fly pre-buddy
box. When I got better I built
my own clubs via
Golfsmith. Now I have a nice set
of Pings. Still play
badly but look good getting out of the
car 😉
Do any of you
think I am on a useful track?
Hank From: NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
on behalf of Tjpritchett via
NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent:
Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: Curt
Oberg; General pattern discussion
Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a
pattern plane..
Good perspective, an even
better goal, and an excellent
wife!! You’ve got it made
Curt!!
(See you in Andersonville!)
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13
PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion
< nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote:
>
> When I
started flying pattern back in the mid
70's, starting
from scratch you could get into
pattern flying with a very
competitive rig for about $750. One
hundred for a plane kit,
$100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a
ProLine Competition 6
radio including battery and servos,
and about $150 for
retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract
servos, finishing
materials, etc. Of course you
then had to build the plane
first (which is probably becoming a
lost art). Relatively
speaking, considering inflation and
the differential between
salaries then and now, the cost of a
present day, ARF
pattern plane, set up ready to fly is
probably very close in
a percentage of your disposable
income. It helps immensely
when you have a wife like mine who
encourages me buy the
best equipment out there for my
planes. Every time I
hesitate to spend money on the hobby,
she always tells me
that if I don't spend the money, my
son will when
I'm gone. My cost for enjoying
pattern flying would go
down somewhat if I would quit landing
in the top of the
trees.
>
> Curt
Oberg
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Jas S via
NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018
7:15 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
for
a pattern plane...
>
> There’s always been talk about
how
expensive pattern is. All disciplines
and hobbies are
expensive, it’s just a choice one
makes as to how much
they want to spend. I’ve not had a
‘top of the line
$$$$’ model since I was a teen when
I wasn’t paying for
my planes. Back then I was lucky
enough to get the best
planes on the market. Ten Plus planes
back then were as good
as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and
relative cost was
about the same. Since being on my own,
I’ve had more
average planes, price point at least.
Sponsorship allows me
to outfit my planes with what I
consider some of the best
equipment, but even then I don’t
bling out my planes at
every turn.
>
>
Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017
Nats in Blytheville,
AR:
> Plane: AJ Acuity $949
> Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
> OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
> Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s
$220
> Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s,
171’s
& 175 $950 now 🤭
> Receiver:
Futaba 7006 $100 now
> Falcon Spinner
and Prop: $160
> Total works out to
about: $2939
>
>
Most hardware is stock from the kit.
Linkages, tail wheel
assembly, sticky velcro hook side,
axles, wheels. I changed
the cowl screws, motor mounting screws
(shorter) and velcro
strap for the battery.
>
> I could have used, and not hurt
my
performance any, this equipment:
>
Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155
($430) and saved -$520
> Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and
saved
-$6
> Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved
-$155
> Gator spinner ($18) and saved
-$42
> APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
> Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186)
and saved
$34
> Shulman Aviation 6v regulator
($20) +$20
> Total saved: $658
>
> So my Acuity set-up
could be done for just about $2144.
This is assuming you
have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m
sized plane.
>
> Now my Epic set-up
from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a
different price point:
> CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price,
I
think Epic + was less)
> Brenner Contra:
$1000 last year
> Kontronic Motor: $500
> Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
> Subtract $60 for the Falcon
spinner
> Futaba servos/receiver,
ThunderPower
batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the
same prices as Acuity.
>
> I usually use
2mm carbon rod for pushrods,
Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU
links, MPI 2.25 wheels.
>
> Total around $6000
>
> Again, using equipment that’s
not
‘top of the line’, I can save
about $2400. Most of the
difference from the Acuity savings is
swapping the contra
for a Himax set-up.
>
> And the Yang/Oxai you can add
another
$~2500 to the total for a top-shelf
set-up.
>
> All this being said,
the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern
are:
> Any sport/pattern capable plane
they are
comfortable flying.
> Any second hand
pattern plane they can afford.
> A good
friend with a spare plane they will
loan you 😁
>
> Have a safe Happy New Year to
everyone and
always land wheels down 😉
>
> Jason
> Jas iP
>
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> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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>
>
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