[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 111, Issue 15

Thu Feb 26 07:40:22 AKST 2015

Keith, that seems like a very "short"-sighted solution!  lol

_____
Phil Spelt, KCRC Emeritus, Secretary
AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member
(865)435-1476v, (865)604-0541c

On 2/25/2015 4:33 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Since we have a Solution looking for a Problem . .
>
> How about a spring-loaded Nail strapped to each of the motor Li-Po's 
> that the caller activates before picking up the airplane.
>
> The resulting smoke and fire would give the Line Chief that Warm and 
> Fuzzy feeling that the plane is now SAFE from an unexpected run-away.
>
> I'll send a couple prototypes to raffle off for the F3A Team 
> fundraiser . . .
>
>
> Keith Hoard
> klhoard at hotmail.com
>
>
> > From: nsrca-discussion-request at lists.nsrca.org
> > Subject: NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 111, Issue 15
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 12:00:01 -0900
> >
> > Send NSRCA-discussion mailing list submissions to
> > nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > nsrca-discussion-request at lists.nsrca.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > nsrca-discussion-owner at lists.nsrca.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of NSRCA-discussion digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (John Pavlick)
> > 2. Re: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (Ed Alt)
> > 3. Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (Matthew Finley)
> > 4. Re: Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (Ronald Van Putte)
> > 5. Re: Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (Jon Lowe)
> > 6. Re: Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (Peter Vogel)
> > 7. Re: Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (John Pavlick)
> > 8. Re: Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (John Pavlick)
> > 9. Re: Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug ) (Ronald Van Putte)
> > 10. DA150 in the Raffle (Atwood, Mark)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 16:08:53 -0500
> > From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick26 at att.net>
> > To: "'John Gayer'" <jgghome at comcast.net>, "'General pattern
> > discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <04e501d05076$1b6596f0$5230c4d0$@net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> >
> >
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > Cell: 203-417-4971
> >
> >
> >
> > idslogo2
> >
> > Integrated Development Services
> >
> >
> >
> > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
> > Behalf Of John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> >
> >
> > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety
> > issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to comply with. All the
> > anecdotal evidence in the world that each responder to this list is safe
> > does not help establish a minimum set of standards. Each one of you 
> has a
> > good process that works for you. Each one of those processes could 
> be easily
> > amended to incorporate an arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. It's the
> > neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he is safe 
> without
> > an arming plug because he does everything else right. The beginner 
> doesn't
> > hear or doesn't understand all the issues with setting up failsafe, 
> throttle
> > cut, arming conditions, thumb on throttle stick that are part of that
> > process of achieving safe operations in the pits and on the runway 
> whether
> > you have an arming plug or not.
> > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver 
> switches
> > and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time I checked 
> failsafe
> > operation at a contest, full throttle kill was running about 50%. 
> Most of
> > the remaining were simply going to hold which doesn't help at all if you
> > already have a problem. Eventually a setup like that will cause a 
> disaster.
> > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and
> > reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the motor/ESC is
> > unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in the model to
> > operate.
> > John
> >
> > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> >
> > I agree 100% with Jerry.
> >
> >
> >
> > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things
> > as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a multi-pronged solution.
> >
> >
> >
> > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a switch to
> > nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I always hold 
> the stick
> > down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves the plane. They usually
> > don't turn off the receiver so I assume my plane is live until I prove
> > otherwise and shut it down.
> >
> >
> >
> > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any more
> > safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling
> > the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC has been 
> shut
> > down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> >
> >
> >
> > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable request and
> > shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion
> > <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying electric in
> > pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one occurrence 
> where
> > someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming plug first. Usually
> > the pilot reminds the person to do it while they're carrying the 
> plane back
> > or as they're setting it down somewhere. It happens with my planes 
> too and
> > I make sure they switch the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and
> > disconnect the battery directly. But before they even get that far I've
> > taken the other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the 
> motor is
> > going to run.
> >
> >
> >
> > My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to
> > effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety 
> that you
> > claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a complete
> > panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor system has
> > been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. There's many 
> ways to
> > manage the risk to the desired level, the use of an arming plug is 
> one, and
> > may not necessarily be the best.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion
> > <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and It works
> > very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence
> > that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else will not be
> > harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance that a 
> pilot /
> > caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I feel most pilots 
> that
> > have been doing it a while is like tying your shoes, or etc.... On 
> all of my
> > electrics except for indoor ships, I have some sort of disconnect. I 
> for one
> > would like to see it an inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just
> > pattern meets, that any plane over a certain size or weight must 
> have one in
> > order to fly. Just my three pennies
> >
> >
> > Matthew E. Finley
> > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/f582fcac/attachment-0001.html>
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: image001.png
> > Type: image/png
> > Size: 735 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/f582fcac/attachment-0001.png>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 16:10:30 -0500
> > From: Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com>
> > To: "jpavlick at idseng.com" <jpavlick at idseng.com>, John Pavlick
> > <jpavlick26 at att.net>, General pattern discussion
> > <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <SNT404-EAS213C3905365C890D619932CE8160 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > I know. This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, electronic 
> rag thrower.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> > >
> > > John Pavlick
> > > Cell: 203-417-4971
> > >
> > > <image001.png>
> > > Integrated Development Services
> > >
> > > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John 
> Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > > To: General pattern discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >
> > > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to 
> comply with. All the anecdotal evidence in the world that each 
> responder to this list is safe does not help establish a minimum set 
> of standards. Each one of you has a good process that works for you. 
> Each one of those processes could be easily amended to incorporate an 
> arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. 
> It's the neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he 
> is safe without an arming plug because he does everything else right. 
> The beginner doesn't hear or doesn't understand all the issues with 
> setting up failsafe, throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on 
> throttle stick that are part of that process of achieving safe 
> operations in the pits and on the runway whether you have an arming 
> plug or not.
> > > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver 
> switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time I 
> checked failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was 
> running about 50%. Most of the remaining were simply going to hold 
> which doesn't help at all if you already have a problem. Eventually a 
> setup like that will cause a disaster.
> > > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in 
> the model to operate.
> > > John
> > >
> > > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> > > I agree 100% with Jerry.
> > >
> > > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a 
> multi-pronged solution.
> > >
> > > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a 
> switch to nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I 
> always hold the stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves 
> the plane. They usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my 
> plane is live until I prove otherwise and shut it down.
> > >
> > > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any 
> more safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC 
> has been shut down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> > >
> > > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable 
> request and shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying 
> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming 
> plug first. Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while 
> they're carrying the plane back or as they're setting it down 
> somewhere. It happens with my planes too and I make sure they switch 
> the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and disconnect the 
> battery directly. But before they even get that far I've taken the 
> other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is 
> going to run.
> > >
> > > My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to 
> effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety that 
> you claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a 
> complete panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. 
> There's many ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of 
> an arming plug is one, and may not necessarily be the best.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and It 
> works very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else 
> will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance 
> that a pilot / caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I 
> feel most pilots that have been doing it a while is like tying your 
> shoes, or etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I 
> have some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it an 
> inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern meets, that any 
> plane over a certain size or weight must have one in order to fly. 
> Just my three pennies
> > >
> > >
> > > Matthew E. Finley
> > > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/f3dde8d8/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 16:15:31 -0500
> > From: Matthew Finley <rcfin02 at msn.com>
> > To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <BAY403-EAS297ED8D850CB7CAFEB43959B7160 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I know, I thought before this thread was over we would be going back 
> to one piece wings, single aileron and tail servos, and non 
> computerized tx's lol
> >
> > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> >
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Date: 02/24/2015 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: jpavlick at idseng.com, John Pavlick <jpavlick26 at att.net>, General 
> pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> > I know. This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, electronic 
> rag thrower.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> > >
> > > John Pavlick
> > > Cell: 203-417-4971
> > >
> > > <image001.png>
> > > Integrated Development Services
> > >
> > > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John 
> Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > > To: General pattern discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >
> > > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to 
> comply with. All the anecdotal evidence in the world that each 
> responder to this list is safe does not help establish a minimum set 
> of standards. Each one of you has a good process that works for you. 
> Each one of those processes could be easily amended to incorporate an 
> arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. 
> It's the neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he 
> is safe without an arming plug because he does everything else right. 
> The beginner doesn't hear or doesn't understand all the issues with 
> setting up failsafe, throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on 
> throttle stick that are part of that process of achieving safe 
> operations in the pits and on the runway whether you have an arming 
> plug or not.
> > > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver 
> switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time I 
> checked failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was 
> running about 50%. Most of the remaining were simply going to hold 
> which doesn't help at all if you already have a problem. Eventually a 
> setup like that will cause a disaster.
> > > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in 
> the model to operate.
> > > John
> > >
> > > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> > > I agree 100% with Jerry.
> > >
> > > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a 
> multi-pronged solution.
> > >
> > > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a 
> switch to nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I 
> always hold the stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves 
> the plane. They usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my 
> plane is live until I prove otherwise and shut it down.
> > >
> > > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any 
> more safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC 
> has been shut down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> > >
> > > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable 
> request and shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying 
> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming 
> plug first. Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while 
> they're carrying the plane back or as they're setting it down 
> somewhere. It happens with my planes too and I make sure they switch 
> the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and disconnect the 
> battery directly. But before they even get that far I've taken the 
> other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is 
> going to run.
> > >
> > > My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to 
> effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety that 
> you claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a 
> complete panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. 
> There's many ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of 
> an arming plug is one, and may not necessarily be the best.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and It 
> works very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else 
> will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance 
> that a pilot / caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I 
> feel most pilots that have been doing it a while is like tying your 
> shoes, or etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I 
> have some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it an 
> inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern meets, that any 
> plane over a certain size or weight must have one in order to fly. 
> Just my three pennies
> > >
> > >
> > > Matthew E. Finley
> > > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/592b9760/attachment-0001.html>
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 16:36:23 -0600
> > From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
> > To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <56E0B541-1A2C-43C0-8738-8FB7F944856B at cox.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Please remember that I warned about a potential ?holy war? if we 
> started discussing arming plugs.
> >
> > Let?s talk about snap rolls or something else that?s not 
> controversial. I kinda think that the ?flick snaps? in F3A are really 
> neat and the pilots whose airplanes perform the snaps in which the 
> tail cones all around should be severely downgraded..
> >
> > Ron Van Putte
> >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know, I thought before this thread was over we would be going 
> back to one piece wings, single aileron and tail servos, and non 
> computerized tx's lol
> > >
> > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> > >
> > >
> > > -------- Original message --------
> > > From: Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> > > Date: 02/24/2015 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > > To: jpavlick at idseng.com <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>, John Pavlick 
> <jpavlick26 at att.net <mailto:jpavlick26 at att.net>>, General pattern 
> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >
> > > I know. This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, 
> electronic rag thrower.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> > >>
> > >> John Pavlick
> > >> Cell: 203-417-4971
> > >>
> > >> <image001.png>
> > >> Integrated Development Services
> > >>
> > >> From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of John 
> Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > >> To: General pattern discussion
> > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >>
> > >> An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to 
> comply with. All the anecdotal evidence in the world that each 
> responder to this list is safe does not help establish a minimum set 
> of standards. Each one of you has a good process that works for you. 
> Each one of those processes could be easily amended to incorporate an 
> arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > >> It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. 
> It's the neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he 
> is safe without an arming plug because he does everything else right. 
> The beginner doesn't hear or doesn't understand all the issues with 
> setting up failsafe, throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on 
> throttle stick that are part of that process of achieving safe 
> operations in the pits and on the runway whether you have an arming 
> plug or not.
> > >> I have seen models without arming plugs, without external 
> receiver switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last 
> time I checked failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was 
> running about 50%. Most of the remaining were simply going to hold 
> which doesn't help at all if you already have a problem. Eventually a 
> setup like that will cause a disaster.
> > >> An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in 
> the model to operate.
> > >> John
> > >>
> > >> On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> > >> I agree 100% with Jerry.
> > >>
> > >> The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a 
> multi-pronged solution.
> > >>
> > >> I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a 
> switch to nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I 
> always hold the stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves 
> the plane. They usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my 
> plane is live until I prove otherwise and shut it down.
> > >>
> > >> An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides 
> any more safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter 
> and disabling the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the 
> ESC has been shut down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> > >>
> > >> Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable 
> request and shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying 
> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming 
> plug first. Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while 
> they're carrying the plane back or as they're setting it down 
> somewhere. It happens with my planes too and I make sure they switch 
> the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and disconnect the 
> battery directly. But before they even get that far I've taken the 
> other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is 
> going to run.
> > >>
> > >> My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found 
> to effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety 
> that you claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a 
> complete panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. 
> There's many ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of 
> an arming plug is one, and may not necessarily be the best.
> > >>
> > >> Jerry
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >> On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and 
> It works very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree 
> of confidence that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone 
> else will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel 
> chance that a pilot / caller could forget to unplug the safety, 
> however I feel most pilots that have been doing it a while is like 
> tying your shoes, or etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor 
> ships, I have some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it 
> an inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern meets, that 
> any plane over a certain size or weight must have one in order to fly. 
> Just my three pennies
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Matthew E. Finley
> > >> QCI - Technology Assistant
> > >> 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > >> mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com 
> <mailto:mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion><Mail 
> Attachment.txt>_______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/922abc8d/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 18:58:07 -0500
> > From: Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com>
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <14bbe06bbd3-d97-1184 at webprd-m65.mail.aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Always stirring up trouble!
> >
> > If it ain't a barrel roll, and it ain't an axial roll, it must be a 
> snap roll. Best definition I ever heard for what is REALLY done in AMA 
> and FAI.
> >
> >
> > Now we'll start hearing a whole bunch of BS about stalled 
> conditions, departure from straight and level, etc etc.
> >
> > I'll shut up now.....
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Please remember that I warned about a potential ?holy war? if we 
> started discussing arming plugs.
> >
> >
> > Let?s talk about snap rolls or something else that?s not 
> controversial. ?I kinda think that the ?flick snaps? in F3A are really 
> neat and the pilots whose airplanes perform the snaps in which the 
> tail cones all around should be severely downgraded..
> >
> >
> > Ron Van Putte
> >
> >
> > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I know, I thought before this thread was over we would be going back 
> to one piece wings, single aileron and tail servos, and non 
> computerized tx's lol?
> >
> >
> > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >?
> > Date: 02/24/2015 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)?
> > To:? jpavlick at idseng.com , John Pavlick < jpavlick26 at att.net >, 
> General pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >?
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )?
> >
> > I know. ?This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, 
> electronic rag thrower.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> >
> > ?
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > Cell: 203-417-4971
> >
> > ?
> >
> > <image001.png>
> >
> > Integrated Development Services
> >
> > ?
> >
> > From: ?NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]?On Behalf Of?John 
> Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent:?Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > To:?General pattern discussion
> > Subject:?Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> > ?
> >
> > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to 
> comply with. All the anecdotal evidence in the world that each 
> responder to this list is safe does not help establish a minimum set 
> of standards. Each one of you has a good process that works for you. 
> Each one of those processes could be easily amended to incorporate an 
> arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. It's 
> the neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he is 
> safe without an arming plug because he does everything else right. The 
> beginner doesn't hear or doesn't understand all the issues with 
> setting up failsafe, throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on 
> throttle stick that are part of that process of achieving safe 
> operations in the pits and on the runway whether you have an arming 
> plug or not.
> > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver 
> switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time I 
> checked failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was 
> running about 50%. Most of the remaining were simply going to hold 
> which doesn't help at all if you already have a problem. Eventually a 
> setup like that will cause a disaster.
> > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in 
> the model to operate.?
> > John
> >
> > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> >
> > I agree 100% with Jerry.?
> >
> > ?
> >
> > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a 
> multi-pronged solution.?
> >
> > ?
> >
> > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a switch 
> to nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I always hold 
> the stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves the plane. 
> They usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my plane is live 
> until I prove otherwise and shut it down. ?
> >
> > ?
> >
> > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any 
> more safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC 
> has been shut down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.?
> >
> > ?
> >
> > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable request 
> and shouldn't be an issue for anyone.?
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying 
> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming 
> plug first. ?Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while 
> they're carrying the plane back or as they're setting it down 
> somewhere. ?It happens with my planes too and I make sure they switch 
> the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and disconnect the 
> battery directly. ?But before they even get that far I've taken the 
> other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is 
> going to run.
> >
> > ?
> >
> > My point is this. ?A layered approach is the only way I've found to 
> effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety that 
> you claim. ?Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a 
> complete panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. 
> ?There's many ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of 
> an arming plug is one, and may not necessarily be the best.
> >
> > ?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and?It 
> works very well. I would gather?it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence that your caller?, plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else 
> will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance 
> that a pilot / caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I 
> feel most pilots that have been doing it a while is like tying your 
> shoes, or etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I 
> have some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it an 
> inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern meets,?that any 
> plane over a certain size or weight must have one in order to fly. 
> Just my three pennies?
> >
> >
> > Matthew E. Finley
> > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com ?
> >
> > ? ?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion 
> mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > ?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > <Mail Attachment.txt> _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion 
> mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/9a0abc72/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 16:02:55 -0800
> > From: Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com>
> > To: Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com>, General pattern discussion
> > <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAGBB6kKo0NUsmHrdnrSAmqFrhcXF7cWLufwB_CVEv76CmO7MHw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > NOT THE WAY I FLY! My airplane is protected from snap roll errors by a
> > foolproof safety system that involves ensuring that I enter and exit 
> snap
> > mode only if I stand on one leg while my caller calls the and rests 
> his/her
> > hand on my shoulder whispering "snap mode" in my ear, I then touch 
> my ear
> > twice in just the right way before flipping the switch on my 
> transmitter.
> > Exiting snap condition is the exact opposite, I touch my ear twice 
> and my
> > caller whispers "exit snap mode", I then return to a two-legged 
> stance and
> > flip the switch on my transmitter. With this absolutely foolproof safety
> > system I am ensured of getting 10's on every snap I do.
> >
> > Peter+
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion <
> > nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Always stirring up trouble!
> > >
> > > If it ain't a barrel roll, and it ain't an axial roll, it must be 
> a snap
> > > roll. Best definition I ever heard for what is REALLY done in AMA 
> and FAI.
> > >
> > > Now we'll start hearing a whole bunch of BS about stalled conditions,
> > > departure from straight and level, etc etc.
> > >
> > > I'll shut up now.....
> > >
> > > Jon
> > > ------------------------------
> > > On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <
> > > nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > > Please remember that I warned about a potential ?holy war? if we 
> started
> > > discussing arming plugs.
> > >
> > > Let?s talk about snap rolls or something else that?s not 
> controversial.
> > > I kinda think that the ?flick snaps? in F3A are really neat and 
> the pilots
> > > whose airplanes perform the snaps in which the tail cones all 
> around should
> > > be severely downgraded..
> > >
> > > Ron Van Putte
> > >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion <
> > > nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know, I thought before this thread was over we would be going 
> back to
> > > one piece wings, single aileron and tail servos, and non 
> computerized tx's
> > > lol
> > >
> > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> > >
> > >
> > > -------- Original message --------
> > > From: Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > Date: 02/24/2015 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > > To: jpavlick at idseng.com , John Pavlick < jpavlick26 at att.net >, General
> > > pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >
> > > I know. This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, electronic
> > > rag thrower.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion <
> > > nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> > >
> > >
> > > John Pavlick
> > > Cell: 203-417-4971
> > >
> > >
> > > <image001.png>
> > > Integrated Development Services
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* NSRCA-discussion [
> > > mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > > <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *John 
> Gayer via
> > > NSRCA-discussion
> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > > *To:* General pattern discussion
> > > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all electric
> > > safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to comply 
> with. All
> > > the anecdotal evidence in the world that each responder to this 
> list is
> > > safe does not help establish a minimum set of standards. Each one 
> of you
> > > has a good process that works for you. Each one of those processes 
> could be
> > > easily amended to incorporate an arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. 
> It's the
> > > neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he is 
> safe without
> > > an arming plug because he does everything else right. The beginner 
> doesn't
> > > hear or doesn't understand all the issues with setting up failsafe,
> > > throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on throttle stick that are 
> part of
> > > that process of achieving safe operations in the pits and on the 
> runway
> > > whether you have an arming plug or not.
> > > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver
> > > switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time 
> I checked
> > > failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was running 
> about 50%.
> > > Most of the remaining were simply going to hold which doesn't help 
> at all
> > > if you already have a problem. Eventually a setup like that will 
> cause a
> > > disaster.
> > > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply
> > > and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is
> > > unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in the model to
> > > operate.
> > > John
> > > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree 100% with Jerry.
> > >
> > >
> > > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the same
> > > things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a multi-pronged
> > > solution.
> > >
> > >
> > > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a switch to
> > > nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I always hold the
> > > stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves the plane. They
> > > usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my plane is live 
> until I
> > > prove otherwise and shut it down.
> > >
> > >
> > > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any 
> more
> > > safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling
> > > the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC has 
> been shut
> > > down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable 
> request and
> > > shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion <
> > > nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying electric
> > > in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence
> > > where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming plug first.
> > > Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while they're 
> carrying the
> > > plane back or as they're setting it down somewhere. It happens with my
> > > planes too and I make sure they switch the receiver off and then I 
> remove
> > > my canopy and disconnect the battery directly. But before they 
> even get
> > > that far I've taken the other steps to make sure there's virtually no
> > > chance the motor is going to run.
> > >
> > >
> > > My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to
> > > effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety 
> that you
> > > claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a complete
> > > panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has
> > > been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. There's many 
> ways to
> > > manage the risk to the desired level, the use of an arming plug is 
> one, and
> > > may not necessarily be the best.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion <
> > > nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > *I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and 
> It works
> > > very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence
> > > that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else will 
> not be
> > > harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance that a 
> pilot /
> > > caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I feel most 
> pilots that
> > > have been doing it a while is like tying your shoes, or etc.... On 
> all of
> > > my electrics except for indoor ships, I have some sort of 
> disconnect. I for
> > > one would like to see it an inforced rule at all sanctioned meets 
> not just
> > > pattern meets, that any plane over a certain size or weight must 
> have one
> > > in order to fly. Just my three pennies *
> > >
> > > *Matthew E. Finley*
> > > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > >
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > > <Mail Attachment.txt> _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion 
> mailing
> > > list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> > Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> > Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/f00cfbde/attachment.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:10:41 -0500
> > From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick26 at att.net>
> > To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <053601d0508f$7fdc8c10$7f95a430$@net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Ya see, we don?t have this problem in slot-car racing (that?s what 
> I?ve been doing since I took a break from Pattern). The only ?judging? 
> is for the 3 best looking cars in each class. Then it?s PURE 
> COMPETITION. Best of all, it?s REALLY easy to figure out who won: the 
> lap-counter doesn?t lie. J
> >
> >
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > Cell: 203-417-4971
> >
> >
> >
> > idslogo2
> >
> > Integrated Development Services
> >
> >
> >
> > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon 
> Lowe via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 6:58 PM
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> >
> >
> > Always stirring up trouble!
> >
> > If it ain't a barrel roll, and it ain't an axial roll, it must be a 
> snap roll. Best definition I ever heard for what is REALLY done in AMA 
> and FAI.
> >
> > Now we'll start hearing a whole bunch of BS about stalled 
> conditions, departure from straight and level, etc etc.
> >
> > I'll shut up now.....
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > _____
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Please remember that I warned about a potential ?holy war? if we 
> started discussing arming plugs.
> >
> >
> >
> > Let?s talk about snap rolls or something else that?s not 
> controversial. I kinda think that the ?flick snaps? in F3A are really 
> neat and the pilots whose airplanes perform the snaps in which the 
> tail cones all around should be severely downgraded..
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron Van Putte
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I know, I thought before this thread was over we would be going back 
> to one piece wings, single aileron and tail servos, and non 
> computerized tx's lol
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion < 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > Date: 02/24/2015 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > To: <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com> jpavlick at idseng.com , John Pavlick 
> < <mailto:jpavlick26 at att.net> jpavlick26 at att.net >, General pattern 
> discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> >
> >
> > I know. This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, electronic 
> rag thrower.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> >
> >
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > Cell: 203-417-4971
> >
> >
> >
> > <image001.png>
> >
> > Integrated Development Services
> >
> >
> >
> > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John 
> Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> >
> >
> > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to 
> comply with. All the anecdotal evidence in the world that each 
> responder to this list is safe does not help establish a minimum set 
> of standards. Each one of you has a good process that works for you. 
> Each one of those processes could be easily amended to incorporate an 
> arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. It's 
> the neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he is 
> safe without an arming plug because he does everything else right. The 
> beginner doesn't hear or doesn't understand all the issues with 
> setting up failsafe, throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on 
> throttle stick that are part of that process of achieving safe 
> operations in the pits and on the runway whether you have an arming 
> plug or not.
> > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver 
> switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time I 
> checked failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was 
> running about 50%. Most of the remaining were simply going to hold 
> which doesn't help at all if you already have a problem. Eventually a 
> setup like that will cause a disaster.
> > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in 
> the model to operate.
> > John
> >
> > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> >
> > I agree 100% with Jerry.
> >
> >
> >
> > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a 
> multi-pronged solution.
> >
> >
> >
> > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a switch 
> to nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I always hold 
> the stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves the plane. 
> They usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my plane is live 
> until I prove otherwise and shut it down.
> >
> >
> >
> > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any 
> more safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC 
> has been shut down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> >
> >
> >
> > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable request 
> and shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying 
> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming 
> plug first. Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while 
> they're carrying the plane back or as they're setting it down 
> somewhere. It happens with my planes too and I make sure they switch 
> the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and disconnect the 
> battery directly. But before they even get that far I've taken the 
> other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is 
> going to run.
> >
> >
> >
> > My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to 
> effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety that 
> you claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a 
> complete panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. 
> There's many ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of 
> an arming plug is one, and may not necessarily be the best.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and It 
> works very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else 
> will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance 
> that a pilot / caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I 
> feel most pilots that have been doing it a while is like tying your 
> shoes, or etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I 
> have some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it an 
> inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern meets, that any 
> plane over a certain size or weight must have one in order to fly. 
> Just my three pennies
> >
> >
> > Matthew E. Finley
> > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > <Mail Attachment.txt> _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion> 
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion 
> mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/8ead43f3/attachment.html>
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: image001.png
> > Type: image/png
> > Size: 735 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/8ead43f3/attachment.png>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:20:24 -0500
> > From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick26 at att.net>
> > To: "'Peter Vogel'" <vogel.peter at gmail.com>, "'General pattern
> > discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <055101d05090$dbb92100$932b6300$@net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Sweet ? I?ll have to try your system. I?ve NEVER gotten a 10 on a 
> snap. The best I ever got was a 9 - but I don?t use any ?conditions? 
> or ?buttons? either. I just fly it completely through with the sticks. 
> Is that what I?m doing wrong? LOL
> >
> >
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > Cell: 203-417-4971
> >
> >
> >
> > idslogo2
> >
> > Integrated Development Services
> >
> >
> >
> > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Peter 
> Vogel via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:03 PM
> > To: Jon Lowe; General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> >
> >
> > NOT THE WAY I FLY! My airplane is protected from snap roll errors by 
> a foolproof safety system that involves ensuring that I enter and exit 
> snap mode only if I stand on one leg while my caller calls the and 
> rests his/her hand on my shoulder whispering "snap mode" in my ear, I 
> then touch my ear twice in just the right way before flipping the 
> switch on my transmitter. Exiting snap condition is the exact 
> opposite, I touch my ear twice and my caller whispers "exit snap 
> mode", I then return to a two-legged stance and flip the switch on my 
> transmitter. With this absolutely foolproof safety system I am ensured 
> of getting 10's on every snap I do.
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter+
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Always stirring up trouble!
> >
> > If it ain't a barrel roll, and it ain't an axial roll, it must be a 
> snap roll. Best definition I ever heard for what is REALLY done in AMA 
> and FAI.
> >
> > Now we'll start hearing a whole bunch of BS about stalled 
> conditions, departure from straight and level, etc etc.
> >
> > I'll shut up now.....
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > _____
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Please remember that I warned about a potential ?holy war? if we 
> started discussing arming plugs.
> >
> >
> >
> > Let?s talk about snap rolls or something else that?s not 
> controversial. I kinda think that the ?flick snaps? in F3A are really 
> neat and the pilots whose airplanes perform the snaps in which the 
> tail cones all around should be severely downgraded..
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron Van Putte
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I know, I thought before this thread was over we would be going back 
> to one piece wings, single aileron and tail servos, and non 
> computerized tx's lol
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion < 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > Date: 02/24/2015 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)
> >
> > To: <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com> jpavlick at idseng.com , John Pavlick 
> < <mailto:jpavlick26 at att.net> jpavlick26 at att.net >, General pattern 
> discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> >
> >
> > I know. This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, electronic 
> rag thrower.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> >
> >
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > Cell: 203-417-4971
> >
> >
> >
> > <image001.png>
> >
> > Integrated Development Services
> >
> >
> >
> > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John 
> Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> >
> >
> >
> > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to 
> comply with. All the anecdotal evidence in the world that each 
> responder to this list is safe does not help establish a minimum set 
> of standards. Each one of you has a good process that works for you. 
> Each one of those processes could be easily amended to incorporate an 
> arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. It's 
> the neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he is 
> safe without an arming plug because he does everything else right. The 
> beginner doesn't hear or doesn't understand all the issues with 
> setting up failsafe, throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on 
> throttle stick that are part of that process of achieving safe 
> operations in the pits and on the runway whether you have an arming 
> plug or not.
> > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver 
> switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time I 
> checked failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was 
> running about 50%. Most of the remaining were simply going to hold 
> which doesn't help at all if you already have a problem. Eventually a 
> setup like that will cause a disaster.
> > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in 
> the model to operate.
> > John
> >
> > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> >
> > I agree 100% with Jerry.
> >
> >
> >
> > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a 
> multi-pronged solution.
> >
> >
> >
> > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a switch 
> to nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I always hold 
> the stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves the plane. 
> They usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my plane is live 
> until I prove otherwise and shut it down.
> >
> >
> >
> > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any 
> more safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC 
> has been shut down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> >
> >
> >
> > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable request 
> and shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying 
> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming 
> plug first. Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while 
> they're carrying the plane back or as they're setting it down 
> somewhere. It happens with my planes too and I make sure they switch 
> the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and disconnect the 
> battery directly. But before they even get that far I've taken the 
> other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is 
> going to run.
> >
> >
> >
> > My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to 
> effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety that 
> you claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a 
> complete panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. 
> There's many ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of 
> an arming plug is one, and may not necessarily be the best.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and It 
> works very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else 
> will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance 
> that a pilot / caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I 
> feel most pilots that have been doing it a while is like tying your 
> shoes, or etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I 
> have some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it an 
> inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern meets, that any 
> plane over a certain size or weight must have one in order to fly. 
> Just my three pennies
> >
> >
> > Matthew E. Finley
> > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > <Mail Attachment.txt> _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion> 
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion 
> mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> >
> > Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> >
> > Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
> >
> > <http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg> 
> <https://googledrive.com/host/0B4LOPeyGAgOJUVJmU1dJMVl6WWc/AcademyModelAeronauticsLogo.png> 
>
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/0baf2d4f/attachment.html>
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: image001.png
> > Type: image/png
> > Size: 735 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/0baf2d4f/attachment.png>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 18:37:21 -0600
> > From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
> > To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > Message-ID: <70BBE16E-5C31-4878-85CD-86EAA867892B at cox.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Well, that?s one of us.
> >
> > Let the fun begin.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Always stirring up trouble!
> > >
> > > If it ain't a barrel roll, and it ain't an axial roll, it must be 
> a snap roll. Best definition I ever heard for what is REALLY done in 
> AMA and FAI.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now we'll start hearing a whole bunch of BS about stalled 
> conditions, departure from straight and level, etc etc.
> > >
> > > I'll shut up now.....
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 Ronald Van Putte via 
> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Please remember that I warned about a potential ?holy war? if we 
> started discussing arming plugs.
> > >
> > > Let?s talk about snap rolls or something else that?s not 
> controversial. I kinda think that the ?flick snaps? in F3A are really 
> neat and the pilots whose airplanes perform the snaps in which the 
> tail cones all around should be severely downgraded..
> > >
> > > Ron Van Putte
> > >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know, I thought before this thread was over we would be going 
> back to one piece wings, single aileron and tail servos, and non 
> computerized tx's lol
> > >
> > > Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> > >
> > >
> > > -------- Original message --------
> > > From: Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
> > > Date: 02/24/2015 4:10 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > > To: jpavlick at idseng.com <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com> , John 
> Pavlick < jpavlick26 at att.net <mailto:jpavlick26 at att.net> >, General 
> pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >
> > > I know. This effectively kills the idea for an automatic, 
> electronic rag thrower.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion < 
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Be careful, you just made WAY too much sense! LOL
> > >
> > > John Pavlick
> > > Cell: 203-417-4971
> > >
> > > <image001.png>
> > > Integrated Development Services
> > >
> > > From: NSRCA-discussion 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of John 
> Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:53 PM
> > > To: General pattern discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
> > >
> > > An arming plug was never intended to be the cure-all for all 
> electric safety issues. I consider it a baseline that is easy to 
> comply with. All the anecdotal evidence in the world that each 
> responder to this list is safe does not help establish a minimum set 
> of standards. Each one of you has a good process that works for you. 
> Each one of those processes could be easily amended to incorporate an 
> arming plug if it doesn't already.
> > > It isn't those with a good process that are the safety problem. 
> It's the neophyte that hears the experienced pilot expound on why he 
> is safe without an arming plug because he does everything else right. 
> The beginner doesn't hear or doesn't understand all the issues with 
> setting up failsafe, throttle cut, arming conditions, thumb on 
> throttle stick that are part of that process of achieving safe 
> operations in the pits and on the runway whether you have an arming 
> plug or not.
> > > I have seen models without arming plugs, without external receiver 
> switches and canopies that require two hands to remove. Last time I 
> checked failsafe operation at a contest, full throttle kill was 
> running about 50%. Most of the remaining were simply going to hold 
> which doesn't help at all if you already have a problem. Eventually a 
> setup like that will cause a disaster.
> > > An arming plug is a small thing to add. It can be done lightly, 
> cheaply and reliably. It provides a visual indication to all that the 
> motor/ESC is unpowered. It is not dependent on any other function in 
> the model to operate.
> > > John
> > >
> > > On 2/23/2015 10:49 PM, Steve Hannah via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> > > I agree 100% with Jerry.
> > >
> > > The multiple throttle kill approach is the best. I have seen the 
> same things as Jerry. The best safety approach is always a 
> multi-pronged solution.
> > >
> > > I use a slider to drop the throttle below arming level and a 
> switch to nullify the throttle stick. Then, for added security I 
> always hold the stick down with my thumb as my caller/helper retrieves 
> the plane. They usually don't turn off the receiver so I assume my 
> plane is live until I prove otherwise and shut it down.
> > >
> > > An external plug is one way, but I fail to see how it provides any 
> more safety than my method. Switching it off from my transmitter and 
> disabling the throttle stick are very secure means and I know the ESC 
> has been shut down. I don't rely on a person to pull a plug.
> > >
> > > Along with that, proving you have a failsafe is a reasonable 
> request and shouldn't be an issue for anyone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 08:50, Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying 
> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least one 
> occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without removing an arming 
> plug first. Usually the pilot reminds the person to do it while 
> they're carrying the plane back or as they're setting it down 
> somewhere. It happens with my planes too and I make sure they switch 
> the receiver off and then I remove my canopy and disconnect the 
> battery directly. But before they even get that far I've taken the 
> other steps to make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is 
> going to run.
> > >
> > > My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've found to 
> effectively mitigate this particular risk to the levels of safety that 
> you claim. Relying on someone to remove an arming plug is not a 
> complete panacea and may lend a false sense of security that the motor 
> system has been de-energized, when in fact it may not have been. 
> There's many ways to manage the risk to the desired level, the use of 
> an arming plug is one, and may not necessarily be the best.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion 
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited, and It 
> works very well. I would gather it provides you with a 99 % dagree of 
> confidence that your caller , plane carrier , yourself, or anyone else 
> will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree that there is a miniscuel chance 
> that a pilot / caller could forget to unplug the safety, however I 
> feel most pilots that have been doing it a while is like tying your 
> shoes, or etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I 
> have some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it an 
> inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern meets, that any 
> plane over a certain size or weight must have one in order to fly. 
> Just my three pennies
> > >
> > >
> > > Matthew E. Finley
> > > QCI - Technology Assistant
> > > 614-557-3846 Mobile
> > > mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com 
> <mailto:mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion><Mail 
> Attachment.txt> _______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
> > > _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion 
> mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>_______________________________________________
> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150224/fdd471bd/attachment.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 10
> > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 20:48:16 +0000
> > From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> > To: NSRCA General <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] DA150 in the Raffle
> > Message-ID: <CBB6C2D4-1FCA-4A1D-ACC5-0EBFE4690517 at paragon-inc.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >
> > Yet another great raffle prize for the F3A team fund raiser. Desert 
> Aircraft has sent us a DA-150L engine for the raffle. Now we?re giving 
> away something to power those nice big birds that JTec has donated!
> >
> > Let?s see some ticket sales! 
> www.teamUSAF3A.com<http://www.teamUSAF3A.com>
> >
> >
> > Mark Atwood
> > Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> > 5900 Landerbrook Drive Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> > Direct: 440.229.2502 | Fax: 440.684.3102
> > www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: 
> <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150225/3c5fa013/attachment-0001.html>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 111, Issue 15
> > *************************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20150226/a397bb3a/attachment.html>