[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Wed Apr 9 11:58:37 AKDT 2014

Hi George..

Great so see you staying vertical and taking nourishment. <tic> 

I do concur George. While it is desirable to keep all descriptions as brief as realistically possibly and let the ARESTI visually clarify, it does still leave a window open for interpretation issues. In full scale the wing waggle is there for a darn good reason. Not saying that is what has to be done here. We have the luxury of hearing the caller, sometimes. Mostly when someone says a OH FUDGE!! grins..

I know Don Lowe did me a great service when he pointed out some flaws in my flying that back in the early 70's the rule book never clearly made me aware of the mistakes I was flying. Locally was a lone group at that time with no coaches. 

This list makes a great sounding board for all to clarify these issues but it don't help those that don't subscribe to it. Many for various political reason chose to not belong to the NSRCA. Yet those pilots are often judges manning the chair. That doesn't help in the clarity department. Not casting stones just addressing some of the issues that often get over looked in the zeal of ones own pursuits and perfections while flying.   
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: George Kennie 
  To: General pattern discussion 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 8:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

  Hey Del,
  How are ya buddy? Y'know, at one time we had a 15 meter rule for entry and exit lines. I don't know if that went away or just got buried in the mountain of confusion that has permeated the rulebook over the years. Somehow it seems that, over the last generation, a lot of babies have found themselves inadvertently discarded into the washwater pool.
  G.

  On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:16 AM, Del R <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

    Playing devils advocate here but how is a judge supposed to know if you argue one uses the straight line drawn where in the straight line do you start to judge the next maneuver? Is the judge take all straight lines and split them down the middle and give 1/2 to the preceding maneuver? That also is never clearly addressed! Thus judges for years have been forced to make assumptions of where maneuvers truly start. Thus many looked for the first push or pull and as long as it was preceded by a straight line all were happy. (Judge and contestant) Creating maneuvers that create judging headaches don't help. Clearly defined leads to well presented. Some maneuvers have longer straight lines than others. When you barely have a straight line presented at all doesn't that create grounds for downgrade? It is not specifically mentioned. 
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: George Kennie 
      To: General pattern discussion 
      Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:04 PM
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

      Boy, you guys got me wondering what all the hub-bub was all about so I had to go and take a look and I think that I'm probably in partial agreement with John. As I see it,It's simple geometry. After the turnaround it has to be classified as a "center maneuver" and center maneuvers should be centered !  The total width of the maneuver is equal to the diameter of the loop, therefore the loop must be presented in a way that displays one half of it's area, irrespective of it's size, on either side of the center line which would require that the vertical upline be offset past center on entry a distance equal to the radius of the loop. The loop is the key element for the centering of this maneuver and the Aresti is incorrectly drawn IMHO.   Sorry if I muddied the waters here guys, but the forum appeared to be open.
      Georgie

      On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:02 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:

        Derek,
        "Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
        The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
        As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
        It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should be using a better word than "somewhere".
        John

        On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

          Anthony,

          This shouldn't be confusing at all. the center of the maneuver is the middle point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can it get?   The statement that the "middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop portion" is correct - depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it differently.

          Your comment about "many outside the US" isn't accurate - if they see it differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight from the F3 sub-committee chair.

          -Derek

          From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
          Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
          To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
          Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

          Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code show the upline being centered.

          A bit confusing,

          Anthony

----------------------------------------------------------------------

          Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
          From: joncarter60 at comcast.net
          To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
          Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

          Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging question? Just let me know.

          Thanks,

          Jon Carter

          Judging Committee Chairman

          Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

          _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

        _______________________________________________
        NSRCA-discussion mailing list
        NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
        http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________
      NSRCA-discussion mailing list
      NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
      http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

    _______________________________________________
    NSRCA-discussion mailing list
    NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
    http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  NSRCA-discussion mailing list
  NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20140409/fe3fe367/attachment.html>