[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Wed Apr 9 07:18:09 AKDT 2014

The competitor has to demonstrate that an exit line and entry line exists
between two maneuvers.  If the judge has to think about whether the line
was an exit line or an entry line then a deduction should be made.  All the
rule book states is that a line must exist - yes, we know there is no
defined length to that line - so if a judge has to think about it then it
should be a deduction.

To me it's just like point rolls... if the judge thinks that there wasn't a
point then the competitor did not clearly demonstrate the point and a
deduction should be made.  Remember, it is up to the competitor to clearly
demonstrate all elements of the maneuver so that there should be no
ambiguity.

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 3:16 AM, Del R <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>  Playing devils advocate here but how is a judge supposed to know if you
> argue one uses the straight line drawn where in the straight line do you
> start to judge the next maneuver? Is the judge take all straight lines and
> split them down the middle and give 1/2 to the preceding maneuver? That
> also is never clearly addressed! Thus judges for years have been forced to
> make assumptions of where maneuvers truly start. Thus many looked for the
> first push or pull and as long as it was preceded by a straight line all
> were happy. (Judge and contestant) Creating maneuvers that create judging
> headaches don't help. Clearly defined leads to well presented. Some
> maneuvers have longer straight lines than others. When you barely have a
> straight line presented at all doesn't that create grounds for downgrade?
> It is not specifically mentioned.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* George Kennie <geobet4evr at gmail.com>
> *To:* General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:04 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>
>  Boy, you guys got me wondering what all the hub-bub was all about so I
> had to go and take a look and I think that I'm probably in partial
> agreement with John. As I see it,It's simple geometry. After the turnaround
> it has to be classified as a "center maneuver" and center maneuvers should
> be centered !  The total width of the maneuver is equal to the diameter of
> the loop, therefore the loop must be presented in a way that displays one
> half of it's area, irrespective of it's size, on either side of the center
> line which would require that the vertical upline be offset past center on
> entry a distance equal to the radius of the loop. The loop is the key
> element for the centering of this maneuver and the Aresti is incorrectly
> drawn IMHO.   Sorry if I muddied the waters here guys, but the forum
> appeared to be open.
> Georgie
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:02 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Derek,
>> "Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I
>> could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
>> The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the
>> entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March
>> K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a
>> single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and
>> the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape.
>> That places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter
>> loop just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would
>> also be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the
>> exit.
>> As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't
>> see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit
>> line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a
>> vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
>> It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is
>> certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should
>> be using a better word than "somewhere".
>> John
>> On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>>
>>  Anthony,
>>
>>
>>
>> This shouldn't be confusing at all... the center of the maneuver is the
>> middle point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more
>> simple can it get?   The statement that the "middle should be somewhere in
>> the 3/4 loop portion" is correct - depending on the size of the 3/4 loop which
>> must match the radius of the 1/4 loop from horizontal to vertical when the
>> maneuver starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each
>> pilot will fly it differently.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your comment about "many outside the US" isn't accurate - if they see it
>> differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight
>> from the F3 sub-committee chair...
>>
>>
>>
>> -Derek
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [
>> mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Anthony Romano
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
>> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>>
>>
>>
>> Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the
>> March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the
>> maneuver somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion." While the many outside the US
>> see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting
>> code show the upline being centered.
>>
>>
>>
>> A bit confusing,
>>
>>
>>
>> Anthony
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
>> From: joncarter60 at comcast.net
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>>
>> Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's
>> article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or
>> judging question? Just let me know.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Jon Carter
>>
>> Judging Committee Chairman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S(R)4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>
>>
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