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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Hi George..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Great so see you staying vertical and
taking nourishment. <tic> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>I do concur George. While it is
desirable to keep all descriptions as brief as realistically possibly and let
the ARESTI visually clarify, it does still leave a window open for
interpretation issues. In full scale the wing waggle is there for a darn good
reason. Not saying that is what has to be done here. We have the luxury of
hearing the caller, sometimes. Mostly when someone says a OH FUDGE!!
grins..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>I know Don Lowe did me a great
service when he pointed out some flaws in my flying that back in the early 70's
the rule book never clearly made me aware of the mistakes I was flying. Locally
was a lone group at that time with no coaches. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>This list makes a great sounding
board for all to clarify these issues but it don't help those that don't
subscribe to it. Many for various political reason chose to not belong to the
NSRCA. Yet those pilots are often judges manning the chair. That doesn't
help in the clarity department. Not casting stones just addressing some of
the issues that often get over looked in the zeal of ones own pursuits and
perfections while flying. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet4evr@gmail.com href="mailto:geobet4evr@gmail.com">George
Kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 09, 2014 8:25
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the
Judges Chair</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Hey Del,</DIV>
<DIV>How are ya buddy? Y'know, at one time we had a 15 meter rule for entry
and exit lines. I don't know if that went away or just got buried in the
mountain of confusion that has permeated the rulebook over the years. Somehow
it seems that, over the last generation, a lot of babies have found themselves
inadvertently discarded into the washwater pool.</DIV>
<DIV>G.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:16 AM, Del R <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com"
target=_blank>drykert2@rochester.rr.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Playing devils advocate here but how is
a judge supposed to know if you argue one uses the straight line drawn where
in the straight line do you start to judge the next maneuver? Is the judge
take all straight lines and split them down the middle and give 1/2 to the
preceding maneuver? That also is never clearly addressed! Thus judges for
years have been forced to make assumptions of where maneuvers truly start.
Thus many looked for the first push or pull and as long as it was preceded
by a straight line all were happy. (Judge and contestant) Creating maneuvers
that create judging headaches don't help. Clearly defined leads to well
presented. Some maneuvers have longer straight lines than others. When you
barely have a straight line presented at all doesn't that create grounds for
downgrade? It is not specifically mentioned. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet4evr@gmail.com href="mailto:geobet4evr@gmail.com"
target=_blank>George Kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General
pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:04 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Boy, you guys got me wondering what all the hub-bub was all about so
I had to go and take a look and I think that I'm probably in partial
agreement with John. As I see it,It's simple geometry. After the
turnaround it has to be classified as a "center maneuver" and center
maneuvers should be centered ! The total width of the maneuver is
equal to the diameter of the loop, therefore the loop must be presented in
a way that displays one half of it's area, irrespective of it's size, on
either side of the center line which would require that the vertical
upline be offset past center on entry a distance equal to the radius
of the loop. The loop is the key element for the centering of this
maneuver and the Aresti is incorrectly drawn IMHO. Sorry if I
muddied the waters here guys, but the forum appeared to be open.</DIV>
<DIV>Georgie</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:02 PM, John Gayer <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"
target=_blank>jgghome@comcast.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Derek,<BR>"Somewhere in the 3/4
loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in
the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.<BR>The center you are describing
would appear to be affected somehow by the entry and exit lines of the
maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see
that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop with a
straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three
quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places
the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop
just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also
be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the
exit.<BR>As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow
offset, I don't see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop
pullup and exit line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two
points should form a vertical line. I see that as the maneuver
centerline as well.<BR>It's certainly true that the aresti shows the
wrong center and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has
the last word but he should be using a better word than
"somewhere".<BR>John<BR>
<DIV>On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Anthony,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">This
shouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the
middle point between the start and end of the maneuver. How much
more simple can it get? The statement that the “middle
should be somewhere in the ¾ loop portion” is correct – depending on
the size of the ¾ loop which must match the radius of the ¼ loop from
horizontal to vertical when the maneuver starts. That center
portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it
differently.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Your
comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it
differently then they are incorrect. The clarification I got is
straight from the F3 sub-committee chair…<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">-Derek<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(225,225,225) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Romano<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 08,
2014 11:27 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges
Chair<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Would love to see a review
of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center
was described as "should be the middle of the
maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many
outside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the
latest FAI sporting code show the upline being
centered.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">A
bit confusing,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Anthony<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014
09:28:00 -0700<BR>From: <A href="mailto:joncarter60@comcast.net"
target=_blank>joncarter60@comcast.net</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hey guys - we got an
excellent suggestion from the group for last month's article so I
thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging
question? Just let me know.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thanks,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Jon
Carter<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Judging Committee
Chairman<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(87,87,87); FONT-SIZE: 7pt">Sent
via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE
smartphone<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR>_______________________________________________
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