[NSRCA-discussion] unknowns

Wed Sep 23 17:04:33 AKDT 2009

Tony -Ron,

I applaud that you guys spoke up. I am sure you could tell us more. But I understand the predicament that a pilot(s) and some judge(s) face when competing at that level, and heaven forbid, even at a local or national level.

Quite frankly-I am a little disillusioned about the whole thing, while at the same time realising it is a fact of life as an F3A flier/national competitor!!

But IF no one talks about it-then the only choice we have is to perpetuate a system that quite frankly is ill.

Something needs to be done or else the W/C become a meaningless exercise and expense for pilots and a Gravy train for judges.

Unless one has represented at a National level, it is almost impossible to comprehend the enormous sacrifice that is made both financially and personal by these guys. True, we choose our own poison and therefore we have nothing to complain about...but...the W/C is the pinnacle of our sport. It is on a path to mediocrity!

I just wished I was financially sound/mad enough to justify spending 10 grand or more for the pleasure of doing a mere four flights, then being judged by a bunch of roosters who may have already determined beforehand who flies good enough to warrant their 'vote'???

The sad thing is, I doubt it's deliberate, and if it is, then we have a REAL problem

Let's face it; it almost seems universal that this years results were not correct. There...I said it!!

True-I have nothing to worry about as I am not on the world stage-therefore I can express an opinion. But when I hear about the things that I continue to hear about at a worlds-then what is one to do??? Deliberately fly incorrectly?? The stall turns were not stall turns, the snaps were not snaps, the spins were not spinning, wings level was 15 to 25 deg wings down??????

I am quite capable of flying to what the judges want...but it is wrong, the judges should want what the rule book says, NOT what the PR profile might be of either a country or pilot.

Speak up lads...the system is broken, and we need to fix it or else the W/C will be about as interesting as the election of your local politician!!!

Tom Koenig
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte
Sent: Thursday, 24 September 2009 9:53 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns

I am probably going to be sorry I ever wrote what is below, but I
think now is the time.

If you've never critically watched an F3A World Championships, you
can't understand what goes on.  You can fly a perfect flight and get
hammered.

First, many country's judges NEVER judge at all between F3A World
Championships.  Many poor judges, in my opinion, are at EVERY F3A
World Championships.  Just why some countries continue to send the
same poor judges, again my opinion, over and over, I don't understand.

Second, it seems that there is an understanding on how scoring will
be done among some countries' judges.  For example, at one F3A World
Championships, flying far out not only was not downgraded, but flying
at 150 meters, where the aircraft is supposed to be, was downgraded.
At others, rules will be "bent" by the judges and it is up to the
pilots and team managers to figure out what (that's not in the rules)
the judges are looking for.

At the 1995 F3A World Championships in Kasaoka, Japan, I was the U.S.
judge.  During the Preliminaries, one country's judge was censured in
front of all the other judges for scoring the pilots from his
country's team too high.  Then, in the Finals, I found out later that
it was determined that I was favoring the U.S. pilots, but I did not,
to my knowledge, change my judging standards.  Apparently I either
didn't judge fairly, or I didn't get the word that the judging
standards were to be changed for the Finals.

You can ask Tony Stillman, Quique Somenzini, Chip Hyde, Jason
Shulman, Sean McMurtry,  or any other active pilots at the F3A world-
class level, what they think of F3A World Championships judges.  Just
don't ask them to do it publicly, where any F3A judges might read/
hear it, or they would be sure to be 'rewarded' by those judges at
the next F3A WC.

Ron Van Putte

On Sep 23, 2009, at 6:46 PM, Tony wrote:

> Tom:
> As a past 4-time USA F3A Team Manager, I saw a BUNCH of "unknown"
> pilots fly
> FANTASTIC sequences and not get anywhere near the score they
> deserved...  I
> can remember in Poland sitting with Chris Lakin and Kirk Grey watching
> several pilots and one was just fantastic!  Chris and Kirk looked
> at each
> other and we need to check his scores!  When they came out they
> were very
> low...  very sad.
>
>
> Tony Stillman, President
> Radio South, Inc.
> 139 Altama Connector, Box 322
> Brunswick, GA  31525
> 1-800-962-7802
> www.radiosouthrc.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Koenig, Tom
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:15 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns
>
> Ron and all,
>
> I LOVE your suggestion. At least then we may have a chance of
> obtaining the
> correct placings and/or the correct world champion?
> Also-do not forget the cost savings to the organisation in that the
> airfares
> will be considerably cheaper by obtaining more 'local' judges. This
> is a big
> driver for the 'European' hosts....and why countries like Australia
> and NZ
> tend be disregarded if at all possible. We have issues in that
> Southern
> hemisphere countries always come from Winter climates where we have
> limited
> oppertunities to actually prepare/practice for a Northern (summer)
> world
> champs.
>
> I have also heard suggestions from W/C contest pilots ( not just
> the aussie
> team btw), that the they wished they could not be 'identified'i.e
> that they
> be infront of some sort of screen whereby the judges could not
> identify the
> actual pilot.
>
> Sure-some models could be used as a way of identifying the pilot,
> but there
> are plenty of the 'same' models being used these days.
>
> I thought that was a cool and perhaps 'do-able' thing? More
> realistic than
> some sort of computerised/video 'tracking', despite such technology
> existing.
>
> Tom
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron
> Van Putte
> Sent: Thursday, 24 September 2009 4:57
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns
>
> I smile every time I think about this:  The F3A World Championships
> host
> gets a list of potential judges from which to pick.  The total list is
> predominantly European judges.  Most F3A WCs end up with predominantly
> European judges. The preponderance of European judges
> dictates how judging will be done.   However, what if the list of
> judges for the 2111 F3A WC is mostly made up of a judge from the U.S.,
> Canada, Mexico, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, China, Japan,
> Argentina, Venezuela, etc , such that it that it is NOT made
> up of predominantly European judges?  Who gets to pick the judges?
> As the host organization, the NSRCA does.
>
> Ron VP
>
> On Sep 23, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Don Ramsey wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> You will be disappointed to know that all the World Judges want to
>> have rolling circles.  I objected strongly and thought I made a good
>> argument; loss of fields, over houses, too much real estate, etc.
>> But, they still want the rolling circles in all future patterns and
>> especially F patterns.  It sure limits the number of fields that can
>> fly those patterns unless the pilots decide to roll in.
>>
>> Don
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of rcmaster199 at aol.com
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:32 AM
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that we keep "learning" the same lessons but some just
>> never get the memo. Rolling circles are very neat differentiating
>> maneuvers BUT not desirable in neither IMAC nor Pattern circles. They
>> simply consume too much real estate and contradict the very
>> essence of
>> why we in Pattern moved to quiet our models. Noise reduction
>> footprint
>> was at the core of that effort some 25 years ago.
>>
>>
>>
>> As my good friend Dean Pappas and I have discussed on many occasions,
>> rolling loops, segments, variations, etc. are just as neat as circles
>> and consume no more footprint than the typical schedule would. Oh
>> BTW,
>> these are far less difficult to judge objectively
>>
>>
>>
>> MattK
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com>
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:08 pm
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns
>>
>> It's funny.  I brought my 40% Carden out of mothballs last weekend to
>> work on the F3M stuff and all I wanted to do was fly it like a
>> pattern
>> airplane.  Ofcourse it doesn't quite measure up, but I found that I
>> really have no enthusiasm left for wapping through
>> rolls where the only skill involved is being able to stop on time.
>> I admit, on the last flight of the day I digressed and did about 10
>> minutes of 3d-ish garbage, until I finally realized that it was
>> really
>> not very satisfying.  Foamies are more fun these days than
>> knocking the sticks around on a 40 % gasser.   I guess I'm just
>> getting old...
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:44:06 -0700
>>> From: seefo at san.rr.com
>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] unknowns
>>>
>>> Vince,
>>>
>>> The "Slow Roll" in IAC does not equate to a pattern slow roll.
>> The IAC
>>> Slow Roll is just a roll, and the term slow is used to
>> differentiate it
>>> from a point roll or snap roll. In truth, the IAC slow roll is never
>>> flown at anything but maximum roll rate available.
>>>
>>> -Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, partial rolling circles are introduced in the Intermediate
>>>> class. As we know, there is not way to do rollers by rolling fast.
>>>> IMAC is missing to introduce the slow roll in Sportsman's
>> class. I am
>>>> not sure why since IAC includes the slow roll.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
>> Sign up
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>>
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