[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Tue Oct 20 16:19:23 AKDT 2009

In Sportsman, you have the OPPORTUNITY to use rudder in the half rolls in
the ½ Rev Cubans, 2 point roll, roll, and Split S.  You don’t HAVE to use
rudder in these maneuvers to score well.

In Intermediate, you have the OPPORTUNITY to use rudder in the half rolls in
the ½ Cubans, 2/4 Split S, ½ rolls reversed, 45 down ½ roll,  Sharks Tooth,
and Double I.  You don’t HAVE to use rudder in these maneuvers to score
well.

Integrated loop/roll elements are not in Masters because the majority of
Masters pilots did not want that element (and this is the last time I will
mention it, as it seems pointless to mention it even now for a 3rd time).
The move from Masters to P09 was not difficult at all
..and to P11 is also
easy (excepting the Figure M).  The real challenge moving to F3A is the
increased level of competition.

Regards,

Dave

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan
fitzsimmons
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:48 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

I think a 4 point would be great for intermediate. It gets you ready for a
slow roll in advanced as it helps you learn the rudder. You most likely
aren't going to learn to roll comfortably with rudder in intermediate
without being forced to learn it. I didn't use rudder till advanced, as
that's when I was forced to learn it. 

IMO, sportsman is the entry class. Exit the box. That's fine. Could help
with the nerves. Intermediate should start to learn rudder, and rudder
corrections. Not master them, but start to learn them. A 4 point could help
with this.  Advanced is where you master rudder corrections (inverted and
upright) which sets you up nicely for masters. Masters should be somewhat
difficult as it is a destination class. There should be a or some integrated
rolling elements (point of continuous). You would find less people in
Masters if they weren't ready for it. And it would make the move to FAI much
easier. 

Back to painting...

Chris 

  _____  

From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, October 20, 2009 2:22:06 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

No, I’ll agree to disagree.  I think you begin using roll with rudder as
you’re LEAVING intermediate.  Putting in a slow roll would require you to
use it upon entry into that class which means you would need to be doing it
at the end of sportsman which is almost ridiculous.   When you’re rolling
comfortably with rudder, it’s time for Advanced and point and slow rolls.  

Mark Atwood

Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President

5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 

Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/> 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:40 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Mark you just supported my point.  Sean is learning to use elevator on his
rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up.  I bet most sportsman
pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of that).  I
also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without using
rudder.  I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2 rolls.  I
believe this is bad advice.  Slow rolls and point rolls in intermediate
would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder before moving
up.  Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more complicated rolling
maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than masters) would lessen
the gap between classes.

I've never used crack.  Hg yes everyday twice a day:)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,
jpavlick at idseng.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Ron??  You’re smokin’ crack again.  STOP that
    Or wait, was that playing
with Mercury
”No ill effects”

You’ve been flying Intermediate for several years and you’re close to moving
out of it.  On the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman.
Adding point roll’s or any of the things you mention would make their heads
explode.     I’m just trying to get Sean (son) to roll well with elevator
and not pitch up 20deg before starting.  We’ll get that down in Sportsman,
but we’ll save learning to slow roll, or even add rudder through the roll in
a ½ reverse Cuban for Intermediate.

Rolling with rudder is usually the last thing someone perfects as they’re
cleaning up the hardward in Intermediate getting ready to move onto
Advanced.  

Mark Atwood
President
Paragon Consulting
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com

IT Solution Providers:  Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation. 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:37 PM
To: jpavlick at idseng.com; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult what I was
suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually.  For an example, I
believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more
difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll.  I learned to roll using
rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll.  I've heard others doing
the same.  I agree that this can be taken to extremes.  For example, I've
heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls.  I believe this will
cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is
detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator).  Maybe
move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some more
complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to
inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge.   These or
similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is a good thing, I think.
As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box maneuvers (like a Humpty) then
I don't think it's asking too much of a Sportsman pilot to try to keep
things in the box until they get a break (box exit). This is very good at
preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as Pete said, yet it gives
them some way to correct their lines.What tends to happen to ALL of us is
this: One little error moves your line. Then another moves your line some
more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines smoothly and / or
simply not make those errors in the first place (or at least make them to a
lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box exits, you only have
cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman doesn't have any
cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line? With box exits of
course. 

As a few people have said - and I say this all the time: the sequence you
fly contains the maneuvers which you are judged on. This doesn't mean that
you can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do
you guys just go to the field and fly your sequence over and over every
time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important. The
difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat
extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of
skills. It's nearly impossible to  make each progression seamless. You must
learn at least some new skills on your own. You can't expect that by
repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow magically be prepared to fly
Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't. VBG

John Pavlick

--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote:

From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM

I partially agree with your last post but those building blocks have to come
from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out of Sportsman 4 years ago and
then stopped flying to help raise my son until this year when I got to fly
again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly but at least I had an idea of
how it all had to go together because I learned those building blocks in
Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened in my particular case
it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and probably would have
taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.

If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do, then take the time
to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go and burn a few tanks
flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else. 

My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays a good foundation
for the progression in the classes.

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