[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Tue Oct 20 16:14:12 AKDT 2009

I'm flying Intermediate for the first year.  I can't say that I'd like to see a 4-point in Intermediate.  Intermediate over Sportsman adds outside pushes (outside loop from top and double-I with half rolls), inverted flight (top of square loop, top of triangle, half outside turnaround), and a crossbox maneuver (humpty with options).  That's a lot to work with and master right there.

Also, having just completed 2 years of Sportsman, if anything, it might make sense to make it harder, not easier.  When I was looking at flying pattern, I thought the routine was easy (on paper).  Flying it is anything but easy, but if you look at the Basic routine in IMAC, someone flying that is going to look at Sportsman and think that is below them.  It might not be a bad idea to implement the double-I with half rolls in Sportsman and mebby some other minor changes to make it seem a little harder without really increasing the difficulty.  Mebby take one of the Exit Boxes and replace it with a humpty??!? (Between the 45 down and the vertical upline on center would be a good place for a humpty.  Nothing is rushed there.)

- Robert Beaubien

- NSRCA District 7 Webmaster

-

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:57 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

I'd like to hear from the Sportsman.  Do you want a 4 point in Intermediate, or is Intermediate intimidating enough? Consider going from a partial turnaround sequence to a full turnaround sequence?  How about in a 20 mph blow in crosswind?  Are you ready to trim your plane for knife edge flight?

Regards,

Dave

________________________________

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan fitzsimmons
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:48 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

I think a 4 point would be great for intermediate. It gets you ready for a slow roll in advanced as it helps you learn the rudder. You most likely aren't going to learn to roll comfortably with rudder in intermediate without being forced to learn it. I didn't use rudder till advanced, as that's when I was forced to learn it. 

IMO, sportsman is the entry class. Exit the box. That's fine. Could help with the nerves. Intermediate should start to learn rudder, and rudder corrections. Not master them, but start to learn them. A 4 point could help with this.  Advanced is where you master rudder corrections (inverted and upright) which sets you up nicely for masters. Masters should be somewhat difficult as it is a destination class. There should be a or some integrated rolling elements (point of continuous). You would find less people in Masters if they weren't ready for it. And it would make the move to FAI much easier. 

Back to painting...

Chris 

________________________________

From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, October 20, 2009 2:22:06 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

No, I'll agree to disagree.  I think you begin using roll with rudder as you're LEAVING intermediate.  Putting in a slow roll would require you to use it upon entry into that class which means you would need to be doing it at the end of sportsman which is almost ridiculous.   When you're rolling comfortably with rudder, it's time for Advanced and point and slow rolls.  

Mark Atwood

Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President

5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 

Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com <http://www.paragon-inc.com/> 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:40 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Mark you just supported my point.  Sean is learning to use elevator on his rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up.  I bet most sportsman pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of that).  I also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without using rudder.  I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2 rolls.  I believe this is bad advice.  Slow rolls and point rolls in intermediate would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder before moving up.  Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more complicated rolling maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than masters) would lessen the gap between classes.

I've never used crack.  Hg yes everyday twice a day:)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, jpavlick at idseng.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Ron??  You're smokin' crack again.  STOP that...    Or wait, was that playing with Mercury..."No ill effects"...

You've been flying Intermediate for several years and you're close to moving out of it.  On the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman.  Adding point roll's or any of the things you mention would make their heads explode.     I'm just trying to get Sean (son) to roll well with elevator and not pitch up 20deg before starting.  We'll get that down in Sportsman, but we'll save learning to slow roll, or even add rudder through the roll in a ½ reverse Cuban for Intermediate.

Rolling with rudder is usually the last thing someone perfects as they're cleaning up the hardward in Intermediate getting ready to move onto Advanced.  

Mark Atwood
President
Paragon Consulting
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com

IT Solution Providers:  Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation. 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:37 PM
To: jpavlick at idseng.com; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult what I was suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually.  For an example, I believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll.  I learned to roll using rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll.  I've heard others doing the same.  I agree that this can be taken to extremes.  For example, I've heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls.  I believe this will cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator).  Maybe move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some more complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge.   These or similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is a good thing, I think. As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box maneuvers (like a Humpty) then I don't think it's asking too much of a Sportsman pilot to try to keep things in the box until they get a break (box exit). This is very good at preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as Pete said, yet it gives them some way to correct their lines.What tends to happen to ALL of us is this: One little error moves your line. Then another moves your line some more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines smoothly and / or simply not make those errors in the first place (or at least make them to a lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box exits, you only have cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman doesn't have any cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line? With box exits of course. 

As a few people have said - and I say this all the time: the sequence you fly contains the maneuvers which you are judged on. This doesn't mean that you can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do you guys just go to the field and fly your sequence over and over every time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important. The difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of skills. It's nearly impossible to  make each progression seamless. You must learn at least some new skills on your own. You can't expect that by repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow magically be prepared to fly Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't. VBG

John Pavlick

--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote:

	From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question
	To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
	Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM

	I partially agree with your last post but those building blocks have to come from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out of Sportsman 4 years ago and then stopped flying to help raise my son until this year when I got to fly again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly but at least I had an idea of how it all had to go together because I learned those building blocks in Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened in my particular case it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and probably would have taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.

	If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do, then take the time to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go and burn a few tanks flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else. 

	My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays a good foundation for the progression in the classes.

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