I'm not arguing with you Dave. Hope you don't see it that way. Just mentioning my thoughts, wasn't directed at anyone.
I understand why Masters isn't doing the integrated rolling stuff and I'm fine with that. I happen to really like the current sequence. I know many in Masters were against it though. Heck, I probably was back then also. But then again, I wasn't flying Masters at that point.
For me personally I guess is what I should have said. I know what worked for me and when I started using rudder in my rolls. I was taking a stab by mentioning my ideas at what possibly could have made me a better pilot along the way. Guess I worded it wrong. Would this work for everyone? I'm sure it wouldn't. Heck, it may not work for anyone. I just mentioned it as it could be another point of view. That's all.
I'm going to fly FAI next year for somewhat of the same reason. In FAI, there is opposite rolls, which I think would be a great Masters maneuver. I think this step is a great key maneuver that should be learned in Masters. It would teach us how to roll both ways. FAI maneuvers will challenge me in new learning ways which I feel ready and excited for. Which I feel will make me a better Masters pilot if I choose to fly Masters at the nats.
I wonder about why Masters is so large sometimes. Is it really the competition level that makes many not move to FAI? Very possibly yes. But at many contests you'd get a trophy in FAI for just flying it. Now I'm talking locals here, not nats. Nats competition is huge in FAI. Many of the best pilots in the world IMO. I was just trying to state that if Masters was more challenging in learning ways like the other classes were for me, then maybe more would fly FAI as they would have progressed through a different set of building (and learning) blocks that were set forth for them. Maybe integrated stuff isn't right for Masters. I look forward to FAI even more now that I said that. Going to have fun with it!
Regards,
Chris
________________________________
From: Dave <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, October 20, 2009 5:17:25 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question
In Sportsman, you have the OPPORTUNITY to use rudder in the half rolls in the ½ Rev
Cubans, 2 point roll, roll, and Split S. You don’t HAVE to use rudder in
these maneuvers to score well.
In Intermediate, you have the OPPORTUNITY to use rudder in the half rolls in the ½ Cubans,
2/4 Split S, ½ rolls reversed, 45 down ½ roll, Sharks Tooth, and Double I. You
don’t HAVE to use rudder in these maneuvers to score well.
Integrated loop/roll elements are not in
Masters because the majority of Masters pilots did not want that element (and this
is the last time I will mention it, as it seems pointless to mention it even
now for a 3rd time). The move from Masters to P09 was not difficult
at all…..and to P11 is also easy (excepting the Figure M). The real
challenge moving to F3A is the increased level of competition.
Regards,
Dave
________________________________
From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan fitzsimmons
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009
7:48 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question
I think a 4 point would be great for intermediate. It gets you ready
for a slow roll in advanced as it helps you learn the rudder. You most likely
aren't going to learn to roll comfortably with rudder in intermediate without
being forced to learn it. I didn't use rudder till advanced, as that's when I
was forced to learn it.
IMO, sportsman is the entry class. Exit the box. That's fine. Could help with
the nerves. Intermediate should start to learn rudder, and rudder corrections.
Not master them, but start to learn them. A 4 point could help with this.
Advanced is where you master rudder corrections (inverted and upright) which
sets you up nicely for masters. Masters should be somewhat difficult as it is a
destination class. There should be a or some integrated rolling elements (point
of continuous). You would find less people in Masters if they weren't ready for
it. And it would make the move to FAI much easier.
Back to painting...
Chris
________________________________
From:"Atwood,
Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, October 20, 2009
2:22:06 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question
No, I’ll agree
to disagree. I think you begin using roll with rudder as you’re
LEAVING intermediate. Putting in a slow roll would require you to use it
upon entry into that class which means you would need to be doing it at the end
of sportsman which is almost ridiculous. When you’re rolling
comfortably with rudder, it’s time for Advanced and point and slow
rolls.
Mark
Atwood
Paragon
Consulting, Inc. | President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio , 44124
Phone: 440.684.3101
x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com | www.paragon-inc.com
From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009
3:40 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question
Mark you just supported my point. Sean is learning to use
elevator on his rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up. I bet
most sportsman pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of
that). I also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without
using rudder. I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2
rolls. I believe this is bad advice. Slow rolls and point rolls in
intermediate would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder
before moving up. Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more
complicated rolling maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than
masters) would lessen the gap between classes.
I've never used crack. Hg yes everyday twice a day:)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, jpavlick at idseng.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question
Ron?? You’re
smokin’ crack again. STOP that… Or wait,
was that playing with Mercury…”No ill effects”…
You’ve been
flying Intermediate for several years and you’re close to moving out of
it. On the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman.
Adding point roll’s or any of the things you mention would make their
heads explode. I’m just trying to get Sean (son)
to roll well with elevator and not pitch up 20deg before starting.
We’ll get that down in Sportsman, but we’ll save learning to slow
roll, or even add rudder through the roll in a ½ reverse Cuban for
Intermediate.
Rolling with rudder
is usually the last thing someone perfects as they’re cleaning up the
hardward in Intermediate getting ready to move onto Advanced.
Mark Atwood
President
Paragon Consulting
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102
mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com
IT
Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation.
From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009
2:37 PM
To: jpavlick at idseng.com; General
pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question
When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult
what I was suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually. For an
example, I believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more
difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll. I learned to roll using
rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll. I've heard others doing
the same. I agree that this can be taken to extremes. For example,
I've heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls. I believe this
will cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is
detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator).
Maybe move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some
more complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to
inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge. These
or similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question
Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is a good thing, I think. As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box maneuvers (like a Humpty) then I don't think it's asking too much of a Sportsman pilot to try to keep things in the box until they get a break (box exit). This is very good at preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as Pete said, yet it gives them some way to correct their lines.What tends to happen to ALL of us is this: One little error moves your line. Then another moves your line some more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines smoothly and / or simply not make those errors in the first place (or at least make them to a lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box exits, you only have cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman doesn't have any cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line? With box exits of course.
As a few people have said - and I say this all the time: the sequence you fly contains the maneuvers which you are judged on. This doesn't mean that you can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do you guys just go to the field and fly your sequence over and over every time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important. The difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of skills. It's nearly impossible to make each progression seamless. You must learn at least some new skills on your own. You can't expect that by repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow magically be prepared to fly Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't. VBG
John Pavlick
--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote:
>> From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question
>> To: "General pattern discussion"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM
>I partially agree with your last post but those
> building blocks have to come from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out
> of Sportsman 4 years ago and then stopped flying to help raise my son
> until this year when I got to fly again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly
> but at least I had an idea of how it all had to go together because I learned
> those building blocks in Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened
> in my particular case it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and
> probably would have taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.
>
>If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do,
> then take the time to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go
> and burn a few tanks flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else.
>
>
>My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays
> a good foundation for the progression in the classes.
>
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