[NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence

Tue May 5 10:31:54 AKDT 2009

Based on experience as site director at the Nats and CD at local contests I don't think the extra minute on the sequence is the problem. The FAI guys are being as professional as possible and seldom take their allotted time to take off. There a lot of guys flying Masters that you have to run down and wake up before they even start to get ready to fly. 

I try to see to it that all contestants have a good experience every time so I am guilty of contributing to long Master's rounds. A little peer pressure from the Masters pilots might help. You have to push to get to 6 flights per hour on a flight line. 

It used to help when the officials had the latitude to just move a contestant to last when there was a delay. I don't think that ever was rule book legal though. 

When the judges have a problem you are really stuck until they reslove it. The best place to deal with it is on the line at the time.

John Ferrell  W8CCW

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke
...."The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."  
   MARGARET THATCHER 
http://DixieNC.US

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Archie Stafford 
  To: 'General pattern discussion' 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 1:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence

  I find this hard to believe as the masters guys are always flying later than the FAI guys.  I think we really need to start considering the guys in the chair judging.  Masters when flying in the morning has flown through lunch before when there are enough guys.  The turnout has been lighter the last couple of years, but it definitely takes longer to get through the large number of masters guy than it does 25 FAI guys.  Especially with the new FAI sequences.

  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Joe Lachowski
  Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:36 PM
  To: NSRCA Discussion List
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence

  Hmm, I have my timer on my Tx set to  8 minutes.  I start it after I place the plane on the runway and then walk to my flight station and land in close to 8 minutes. My timer is at least 30 or more  seconds down before I even take off. You guys must fly awful big with all your excess YS horsepower<g>

  I had this discussion with Dave Guerin today. His experience at the Nats is that the FAI guys take longer than the Masters guys still. He feels the length of the sequence is not an issue. 

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  From: astafford at swtexas.net
  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 10:04:14 -0500
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence

  Stuart,

  Are you including the takeoff and landing in the 7 minutes?  At a contest here in TX last weekend, most guys were over 8 minutes for the whole sequence.   This really makes the judging drag on, especially since masters is usually the largest class at most contests.  

  As far as integrated rolling maneuvers.   They aren't near as difficult as many make them out to be.  A loop with a roll at the top or 4 point at the top isn't nearly as difficult to do well as say the current figure M.  Ones that are the bottom of a loop are a different story, but there are integrated rolling maneuvers that could be added that would help prepare people for FAI.  Maybe this is something that sequence committees should look at.  I hate to use IMAC as a reference, but they start doing 90 degree rolling stuff in their intermediate class to prepare people for the upper classes.  

  Frankly right now, the advanced class doesn't prepare anyone for anything.  It isn't much more difficult that the current intermediate sequence and the jump from Advanced to masters is huge.  I understand Masters is a destination class and many people wont move on to FAI, but I also don't think we want this ridiculous jump between the two patterns.  After a while you are going to have such a large gap that you are going to have a hard time finding people qualified to judge it.  You are going to have maneuvers that guys in masters may have never heard of.  The designs people are flying in Masters and the lower classes are mostly driven by FAI.  Maybe we should start taking advantage of some of the benefits of these designs in the other classes.  

  There is no reason an Advanced pilot couldn't do a loop with a 4 point at the top.  It is certainly no more difficult than an Avalanche.  It would also begin to prepare people in the lower classes for tougher maneuvers and using the rudder in the higher classes.  

  Arch

  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Chale
  Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:48 AM
  To: General pattern discussion
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence

  Is the integrated half roll horizontal at the bottom or at knife edge at the bottom :)

  I am one that likes the length of the masters sequence.  It can be completed in about 7 minutes or so.  The IMAC guys that I fly with are always surprised that there are so many maneuvers as they fly two sequences per round.  Nice to see them impressed about something to do with pattern.  I wouldn't like to see it get any longer though.  
  As far as using the FAI schedules.  It sure would make judging much easier for both groups of pilots.  I find it difficult to judge FAI as I haven't memorized their sequence.  Only hitting 1 or 2 contests per year for the last couple of years makes it difficult to judge them without a caller giving me the maneuvers.  Flying the same sequence would obviously make that easier.  
  The FAI sequence is more difficult with some integrated rollers but I think that is something most masters pilots could learn.

  Stuart

  Mike Hester wrote: 

  Well, I'll just put in my opinion on it since it affects me....

  Replacing the new masters pattern with P-09 probably wouldn't be THAT big of a deal although I don't really like that schedule. Fact is there's nothing in there a masters pilot would have any serious problems with.

  The same cannot be said for P-11. The first manuever is a figure M with an integrated half roll in the center, effectively placing the plane in knife edge headed down and turning back upward. There are a lot of planes still out there that won't turn the corner; it takes a VERY good plane or a very good pilot to do it correctly. I've been playing with it for 2 years myself. I made sure my plane would do it happily, but the older V2 wouldn't do it happily...and a plane from the Focus era? Have fun. As I said it can be done but it's definitely not fun.

  And that's just one manuever. With the way FAI is going, lord only knows what the future holds. 

  On the same subject I have a feeling any "recreational" FAI competitor might be flying masters come next year =)

  -Mike

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: michael s harrison 

    To: 'General pattern discussion' 

    Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 10:02 AM

    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence

    Joe,

    It has probably been mentioned before but I would recommend simply using the existing-whatever is at that time- FAI P pattern for the masters sequence and allow it to be replaced by the upcoming P pattern every cycle.  The pilots are plenty good enough and it would really simplify things and put everyone on the same page.  I believe it would be exciting and fun.

    Mike

    From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Joe Lachowski
    Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:05 AM
    To: NSRCA Discussion List
    Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence

    There has been some discussion on whether it is time to shorten the length of the Masters sequence for 2011. A Poll has been set up on RCU to get the current crop of Masters pilots and future Masters pilots opinions.

    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8742141/tm.htm

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