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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Based on experience as site director at the
Nats and CD at local contests I don't think the extra minute on the sequence is
the problem. The FAI guys are being as professional as possible and seldom take
their allotted time to take off. There a lot of guys flying Masters that you
have to run down and wake up before they even start to get ready to fly.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I try to see to it that all contestants have a good
experience every time so I am guilty of contributing to long Master's rounds. A
little peer pressure from the Masters pilots might help. You have to push to get
to 6 flights per hour on a flight line. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It used to help when the officials had the latitude
to just move a contestant to last when there was a delay. I don't think
that ever was rule book legal though. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When the judges have a problem you are really stuck
until they reslove it. The best place to deal with it is on the line at the
time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR> <BR>"All that is necessary for the
triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke<BR>...."The
problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's
money." <BR> MARGARET THATCHER <BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=astafford@swtexas.net href="mailto:astafford@swtexas.net">Archie
Stafford</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 1:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of
2011 Masters Sequence</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
find this hard to believe as the masters guys are always flying later than the
FAI guys. I think we really need to start considering the guys in the
chair judging. Masters when flying in the morning has flown through
lunch before when there are enough guys. The turnout has been lighter
the last couple of years, but it definitely takes longer to get through the
large number of masters guy than it does 25 FAI guys. Especially with
the new FAI sequences.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joe
Lachowski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:36 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Discussion List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011
Masters Sequence<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Hmm, I have my
timer on my Tx set to 8 minutes. I start it after I place the
plane on the runway and then walk to my flight station and land
in close to 8 minutes. My timer is at least 30 or more seconds
down before I even take off. You guys must fly awful big with all your excess
YS horsepower<g><BR> <BR>I had this discussion with Dave Guerin
today. His experience at the Nats is that the FAI guys take longer than the
Masters guys still. He feels the length of the sequence is not an issue.
<BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">
<HR id=stopSpelling align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">From:
astafford@swtexas.net<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Tue, 5
May 2009 10:04:14 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011
Masters Sequence<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Stuart,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Are
you including the takeoff and landing in the 7 minutes? At a contest
here in TX last weekend, most guys were over 8 minutes for the whole
sequence. This really makes the judging drag on, especially since
masters is usually the largest class at most contests. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">As
far as integrated rolling maneuvers. They aren’t near as difficult
as many make them out to be. A loop with a roll at the top or 4 point at
the top isn’t nearly as difficult to do well as say the current figure
M. Ones that are the bottom of a loop are a different story, but there
are integrated rolling maneuvers that could be added that would help prepare
people for FAI. Maybe this is something that sequence committees should
look at. I hate to use IMAC as a reference, but they start doing 90
degree rolling stuff in their intermediate class to prepare people for the
upper classes. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Frankly
right now, the advanced class doesn’t prepare anyone for anything. It
isn’t much more difficult that the current intermediate sequence and the jump
from Advanced to masters is huge. I understand Masters is a destination
class and many people wont move on to FAI, but I also don’t think we want this
ridiculous jump between the two patterns. After a while you are going to
have such a large gap that you are going to have a hard time finding people
qualified to judge it. You are going to have maneuvers that guys in
masters may have never heard of. The designs people are flying in
Masters and the lower classes are mostly driven by FAI. Maybe we should
start taking advantage of some of the benefits of these designs in the other
classes. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">There
is no reason an Advanced pilot couldn’t do a loop with a 4 point at the
top. It is certainly no more difficult than an Avalanche. It would
also begin to prepare people in the lower classes for tougher maneuvers and
using the rudder in the higher classes. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Arch</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Stuart
Chale<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B> General
pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011
Masters Sequence</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">Is the integrated
half roll horizontal at the bottom or at knife edge at the bottom :)<BR><BR>I
am one that likes the length of the masters sequence. It can be
completed in about 7 minutes or so. The IMAC guys that I fly with are
always surprised that there are so many maneuvers as they fly two sequences
per round. Nice to see them impressed about something to do with
pattern. I wouldn't like to see it get any longer though. <BR>As
far as using the FAI schedules. It sure would make judging much easier
for both groups of pilots. I find it difficult to judge FAI as I haven't
memorized their sequence. Only hitting 1 or 2 contests per year for the
last couple of years makes it difficult to judge them without a caller giving
me the maneuvers. Flying the same sequence would obviously make that
easier. <BR>The FAI sequence is more difficult with some integrated
rollers but I think that is something most masters pilots could
learn.<BR><BR>Stuart<BR><BR>Mike Hester wrote: <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Well, I'll just put
in my opinion on it since it affects me....</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Replacing the new
masters pattern with P-09 probably wouldn't be THAT big of a deal although I
don't really like that schedule. Fact is there's nothing in there a masters
pilot would have any serious problems with.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The same cannot be
said for P-11. The first manuever is a figure M with an integrated half roll
in the center, effectively placing the plane in knife edge headed down and
turning back upward. There are a lot of planes still out there that won't turn
the corner; it takes a VERY good plane or a very good pilot to do it
correctly. I've been playing with it for 2 years myself. I made sure my plane
would do it happily, but the older V2 wouldn't do it happily...and a plane
from the Focus era? Have fun. As I said it can be done but it's definitely not
fun.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">And that's just one
manuever. With the way FAI is going, lord only knows what the future holds.
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">On the same subject
I have a feeling any "recreational" FAI competitor might be flying masters
come next year =)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-Mike</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> michael s
harrison </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> 'General pattern
discussion' </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Tuesday, May 05,
2009 10:02 AM</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters Sequence</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Joe,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">It
has probably been mentioned before but I would recommend simply using the
existing-whatever is at that time- FAI P pattern for the masters sequence
and allow it to be replaced by the upcoming P pattern every cycle. The
pilots are plenty good enough and it would really simplify things and put
everyone on the same page. I believe it would be exciting and
fun.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Mike</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joe
Lachowski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:05 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Discussion List<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Length of 2011 Masters
Sequence</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'">There has been
some discussion on whether it is time to shorten the length of the Masters
sequence for 2011. A Poll has been set up on RCU to get the current crop of
Masters pilots and future Masters pilots
opinions.<BR> <BR>http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8742141/tm.htm<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
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