[NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

Tue Aug 28 11:39:23 AKDT 2007

 So Gary wouldn't it be nice for those attending to see live scores posted? Mike

"Courtney, Gary Ray" <grcourtney at tva.gov> wrote:      At the RC/RC contest in HSV AL. Don Peck will sit out in the bleachers and educate anyone he can corner as to what they are looking at and as to what they are supposed to be looking at, He passes out call sheets and at one time I believe he had aresti's to show the spectators. Granted he is no cowboy cheerleader, but he does try to educate people as to what we as pattern flyers are about.

  gary

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  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:34 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

I was only pointing out that there are several reasons for very few spectators. One is that any spectator that does show up must be agressive about asking questions in order to have a clue that there is even an official event in progress. If we had a scoreboard  and handouts accessible to these imaginary spectators(might even help new girlfriends) that provide a basis to ask reasonably intelligent questions like "how high can you make it go" :-) 
Spectators are available if a press release is issued to media outlets and flyers are put up at each flying field in the area and every hobby shop.

Of course, if you can guarentee the attendance of the Dallas cheerleaders in you press release, you had better figure out how to rent some grandstands.

John

J N Hiller wrote:         

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 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt  }  SPAN.moz-smiley-s1 {   mso-style-name: moz-smiley-s1  }  SPAN.EmailStyle21 {   COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial  }  DIV.Section1 {   page: Section1  }  OL {   MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in  }  UL {   MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in  }        Great, professional callers too.
  Jim Hiller
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  -----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jerry Stebbins
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:00 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.
  <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
  Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators" are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those are they ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!. 
  Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back by developing and forming a set of touring callers--how about calling the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested. THAT would probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :)  
  Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone willing to fess-up?
  Jerry
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: John Pavlick 

To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.
   
  Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends count?

  John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: John Gayer 

To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.
   
  Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on the patterns and pattern in general.

Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they doing better in providing information to spectators?  Are they getting large crowds for the unknowns and freestyles?
The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.
Must be why they had such large crowds :-) 
John

Mark Atwood wrote: 

    To take that a step further...when was the last time you saw them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is basically what we fly...the EXACT same routine.  They’ve dropped the “figures” portion of the competition completely.  

But I still think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it is likely to create problems.

-M

On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com> wrote:

    Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring? Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that can be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown flight after flight. 

As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would matter to would be the one's participating in the contest. Not necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating without music? 
Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com 

-----Original Message-----
From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org  [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Lance Van  Nostrand
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM
To: NSRCA  Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the  times?

I'm willing to try things that would make pattern  more spectator friendly.  I think the reason the lone spectator talking  during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and  talking loud enough that judges can hear is rare.  If it became common  place we would soon tune it out and spectators would be better able to follow  the contest.

Your points are excellent.  In my area we  don't require judges to initial their scoresheets.  I don'tunderstand  this and I always initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand  next to my scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain  score.  The occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were  supportive and spiritbuilding.

--Lance

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08  PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the times?

I heard a story  from this years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in  contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another pilot who was also  in contention (and watching) yelled out an inappropriate remark.  I  think that audience input or influence is something we should steer away  from for precision aerobatics.  We certainly do not need it to be quiet  like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are not  good.

Although slightly  off topic – what I do think we should do is post all raw scores every flight  for every pilot (I think this is done for the WC).  I think this would  provide the following opportunities:

    <!--[if !supportLists]-->1. <!--[endif]-->The availability of the raw  scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE judges training  tool.  Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch flights  together, make comments and discuss, then go back later and see if what  they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that flight.   There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging training (..  ideas welcome).   
  <!--[if !supportLists]-->2. <!--[endif]-->Posting of raw scores would  allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how they performed compared to their  judging partners.  There is all kinds of good value that could come  from this.  Whether noted privately or discussed between each other,  it is good from time to time to check yourself.   
  <!--[if !supportLists]-->3. <!--[endif]-->Posting of raw scores would  help keep the honest man honest.  By posting raw scores, I think  there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut it:   Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or other bias’ would be  removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges scores  would be posted.   
  <!--[if !supportLists]-->4. <!--[endif]-->And most importantly,  increased “transparency” in the system helps the seasoned and new comer  alike understand the process of the contest, scoring, and “how” the 1000,  900, or 800’s came to be.  I believe that no matter whom you are, you  want to leave a contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a  fair hand.  Transparency is the key to this.    
  <!--[if !supportLists]-->5. <!--[endif]-->OK – last one – it takes  “scoring” which is a topic of much discussion during and after a pattern  contest in case you haven’t heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and  brings to the open this topic which everyone is already discussing.   This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the conspiracy theorist and  such whom all of our districts have.  Transparency is good  J  

I write none of  this from the sour-grapes perspective.  I love this stuff.  I  think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out weight the  potential bad, provide more transparency for the competitor and also provide  judges training.

Thanks,

Jim  W.

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From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org  [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of JShulman
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49  PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the times?

Probably the best  reason not to have it...lol. It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when  a pilot screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the  crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver  that they are doing all wrong! Total  Chaos!

Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com  

    On Behalf  Of Derek  Koopowitz

can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs"  from the spectators.   :)

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