[NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

Courtney, Gary Ray grcourtney at tva.gov
Tue Aug 28 09:54:47 AKDT 2007


At the RC/RC contest in HSV AL. Don Peck will sit out in the bleachers
and educate anyone he can corner as to what they are looking at and as
to what they are supposed to be looking at, He passes out call sheets
and at one time I believe he had aresti's to show the spectators.
Granted he is no cowboy cheerleader, but he does try to educate people
as to what we as pattern flyers are about.
 
gary

________________________________

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John
Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:34 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.


I was only pointing out that there are several reasons for very few
spectators. One is that any spectator that does show up must be
agressive about asking questions in order to have a clue that there is
even an official event in progress. If we had a scoreboard  and handouts
accessible to these imaginary spectators(might even help new
girlfriends) that provide a basis to ask reasonably intelligent
questions like "how high can you make it go" :-) 
Spectators are available if a press release is issued to media outlets
and flyers are put up at each flying field in the area and every hobby
shop.

Of course, if you can guarentee the attendance of the Dallas
cheerleaders in you press release, you had better figure out how to rent
some grandstands.

John

J N Hiller wrote: 

	Great, professional callers too.

	Jim Hiller

	<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

	-----Original Message-----
	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jerry
Stebbins
	Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:00 AM
	To: NSRCA Mailing List
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

	<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

	Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason
than the "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators"
are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are
working, and if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway.
Those are they ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the
contest!. 

	Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back
by developing and forming a set of touring callers--how about calling
the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested. THAT would
probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :)  

	Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone
willing to fess-up?

	Jerry

	----- Original Message ----- 

	
	From: John Pavlick <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>  

	

	To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>


	Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM

	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

	<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

	Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a Pattern
contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends count?

	

	John Pavlick
	http://www.idseng.com

	----- Original Message ----- 

	
	From: John Gayer <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>  

	

	To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>


	Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM

	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

	<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

	Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots
with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts
on the patterns and pattern in general.
	
	Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they doing
better in providing information to spectators?  Are they getting large
crowds for the unknowns and freestyles?
	The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I
recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.
	Must be why they had such large crowds :-) 
	John
	
	Mark Atwood wrote: 

	To take that a step further...when was the last time you saw
them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is basically
what we fly...the EXACT same routine.  They've dropped the "figures"
portion of the competition completely.  
	
	But I still think it would be entertaining to see
scores...though I agree it is likely to create problems.
	
	-M
	
	
	
	On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
<mailto:jshulman at cfl.rr.com>  wrote:

	Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring? Lets
face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that can
be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown flight
after flight. 
	
	As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would
matter to would be the one's participating in the contest. Not
necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that stay the
extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or combat,
it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating without music? 
	Regards,
	Jason
	www.jasonshulman.com
	www.shulmanaviation.com
	www.composite-arf.com 

	
	-----Original Message-----
	From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D> On Behalf Of Lance
Van  Nostrand
	Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM
	To: NSRCA  Mailing List
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the  times?
	
	
	I'm willing to try things that would make pattern  more
spectator friendly.  I think the reason the lone spectator talking
during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and
talking loud enough that judges can hear is rare.  If it became common
place we would soon tune it out and spectators would be better able to
follow  the contest.
	
	 
	 
	Your points are excellent.  In my area we  don't require judges
to initial their scoresheets.  I don'tunderstand  this and I always
initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand  next to my
scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain  score.  The
occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were  supportive and
spiritbuilding.
	
	 
	 
	--Lance
	
	 
	 

	
	----- Original Message ----- 
	 
	From:  Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
<mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>   
	 
	To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>   
	 
	Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08  PM
	 
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the times?
	 
	
	 
	 
	 
	
	I heard a story  from this years nats where one of the Advanced
competitors that was in  contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver,
and another pilot who was also  in contention (and watching) yelled out
an inappropriate remark.  I  think that audience input or influence is
something we should steer away  from for precision aerobatics.  We
certainly do not need it to be quiet  like for golf, but direct
statements meant to be heard by the judges are not  good.
	
	 
	Although slightly  off topic - what I do think we should do is
post all raw scores every flight  for every pilot (I think this is done
for the WC).  I think this would  provide the following opportunities:

	<!--[if !supportLists]-->1. <!--[endif]-->The availability of
the raw  scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE judges training
tool.  Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch flights  together,
make comments and discuss, then go back later and see if what  they
thought they saw was in line with the scores for that flight.   There is
all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging training (..  ideas
welcome).   

	<!--[if !supportLists]-->2. <!--[endif]-->Posting of raw scores
would  allow "judges" to after-the-fact see how they performed compared
to their  judging partners.  There is all kinds of good value that could
come  from this.  Whether noted privately or discussed between each
other,  it is good from time to time to check yourself.   

	<!--[if !supportLists]-->3. <!--[endif]-->Posting of raw scores
would  help keep the honest man honest.  By posting raw scores, I think
there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut it:   Santa-Clausing,
Low-balling, "teams", regionality, or other bias' would be
removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges scores
would be posted.   

	<!--[if !supportLists]-->4. <!--[endif]-->And most importantly,
increased "transparency" in the system helps the seasoned and new comer
alike understand the process of the contest, scoring, and "how" the
1000,  900, or 800's came to be.  I believe that no matter whom you are,
you  want to leave a contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a
fair hand.  Transparency is the key to this.    

	<!--[if !supportLists]-->5. <!--[endif]-->OK - last one - it
takes  "scoring" which is a topic of much discussion during and after a
pattern  contest in case you haven't heard, away from a shadowy
discussion, and  brings to the open this topic which everyone is already
discussing.   This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the
conspiracy theorist and  such whom all of our districts have.
Transparency is good  J  

	
	 
	I write none of  this from the sour-grapes perspective.  I love
this stuff.  I  think the potential benefits from posting the raws would
out weight the  potential bad, provide more transparency for the
competitor and also provide  judges training.
	
	 
	Thanks,
	
	Jim  W.
	
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
	 
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________________________________


	
	
	 
	 
	
	
	From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>  On Behalf Of
JShulman
	Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49  PM
	To: NSRCA Mailing List
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the times?
	
	 
	 
	
	Probably the best  reason not to have it...lol. It's bad enough
when we screw-up... I mean when  a pilot screws-up and you hear all the
OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the  crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when
someone gets judged for a maneuver  that they are doing all wrong! Total
Chaos!
	
	 
	
	 
	Regards,
	Jason
	www.jasonshulman.com
	www.shulmanaviation.com
	www.composite-arf.com  
	 

	On Behalf  Of Derek  Koopowitz
	
	 
	
	can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs"  from the
spectators.   :)

	
	 

	
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