[NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

Tue Aug 28 12:24:46 AKDT 2007

Mike

If it could be done in a manner as not to affect the pilot while he is
flying ( crowd oooos and ahhhhhs and the occasional holy@$#% what was
that a 10 yada yada yada) you would have to have a shush rule, crowd
noise doesn't bother me much I can't here them over mine and my callers
laughing at what I'm doing in the air, it certainly would be interesting
to see the scores role out as the flying is happening.The closest thing
we have in d-3 to instantaneous scoring is Melisa Hester, you land turn
around thank the judges and she is almost  walking up to you with your
raw printout!!!!!! 

gary

________________________________

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of mike
mueller
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:39 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

 So Gary wouldn't it be nice for those attending to see live scores
posted? Mike

"Courtney, Gary Ray" <grcourtney at tva.gov> wrote: 

	At the RC/RC contest in HSV AL. Don Peck will sit out in the
bleachers and educate anyone he can corner as to what they are looking
at and as to what they are supposed to be looking at, He passes out call
sheets and at one time I believe he had aresti's to show the spectators.
Granted he is no cowboy cheerleader, but he does try to educate people
as to what we as pattern flyers are about.

	gary

________________________________

	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John
Gayer
	Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:34 PM
	To: NSRCA Mailing List
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.

	I was only pointing out that there are several reasons for very
few spectators. One is that any spectator that does show up must be
agressive about asking questions in order to have a clue that there is
even an official event in progress. If we had a scoreboard  and handouts
accessible to these imaginary spectators(might even help new
girlfriends) that provide a basis to ask reasonably intelligent
questions like "how high can you make it go" :-) 
	Spectators are available if a press release is issued to media
outlets and flyers are put up at each flying field in the area and every
hobby shop.

	Of course, if you can guarentee the attendance of the Dallas
cheerleaders in you press release, you had better figure out how to rent
some grandstands.

	John

	J N Hiller wrote: 

		Great, professional callers too.
		Jim Hiller
		<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
		-----Original Message-----
		From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jerry
Stebbins
		Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:00 AM
		To: NSRCA Mailing List
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the
times.
		<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
		Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other
reason than the "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most
"spectators" are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless
they are working, and if they have the pattern itch they would be there
anyway. Those are they ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly
after the contest!. 
		Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be
brought back by developing and forming a set of touring callers--how
about calling the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be
interested. THAT would probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :)  
		Wonder what the underlying reason is for this
thread-anyone willing to fess-up?
		Jerry
		----- Original Message ----- 

		From: John Pavlick <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>  
		To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
		Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the
times.
		<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
		Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a
Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends count?

		John Pavlick
		http://www.idseng.com <http://www.idseng.com/> 
		----- Original Message ----- 

		From: John Gayer <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>  
		To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
		Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the
times.
		<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
		Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of
pilots with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing
handouts on the patterns and pattern in general.

		Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they
doing better in providing information to spectators?  Are they getting
large crowds for the unknowns and freestyles?
		The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate,
as I recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.
		Must be why they had such large crowds :-) 
		John

		Mark Atwood wrote: 
		To take that a step further...when was the last time you
saw them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is
basically what we fly...the EXACT same routine.  They've dropped the
"figures" portion of the competition completely.  

		But I still think it would be entertaining to see
scores...though I agree it is likely to create problems.

		-M

		On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
<mailto:jshulman at cfl.rr.com>  wrote:
		Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really
boring? Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't
much that can be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences
being flown flight after flight. 

		As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it
would matter to would be the one's participating in the contest. Not
necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that stay the
extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or combat,
it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating without music? 
		Regards,
		Jason
		www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com/> 
		www.shulmanaviation.com
<http://www.shulmanaviation.com/> 
		www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com/>  

		-----Original Message-----
		From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D> On Behalf Of Lance
Van  Nostrand
		Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM
		To: NSRCA  Mailing List
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?

		I'm willing to try things that would make pattern  more
spectator friendly.  I think the reason the lone spectator talking
during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and
talking loud enough that judges can hear is rare.  If it became common
place we would soon tune it out and spectators would be better able to
follow  the contest.

		Your points are excellent.  In my area we  don't require
judges to initial their scoresheets.  I don'tunderstand  this and I
always initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand  next
to my scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain
score.  The occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were
supportive and spiritbuilding.

		--Lance

		----- Original Message ----- 

		From:  Woodward, Jim
<mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
<mailto:jim.woodward at baesystems.com>   

		To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>   

		Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08  PM

		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the
times?

		I heard a story  from this years nats where one of the
Advanced competitors that was in  contention flew a less-than-perfect
maneuver, and another pilot who was also  in contention (and watching)
yelled out an inappropriate remark.  I  think that audience input or
influence is something we should steer away  from for precision
aerobatics.  We certainly do not need it to be quiet  like for golf, but
direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are not  good.

		Although slightly  off topic - what I do think we should
do is post all raw scores every flight  for every pilot (I think this is
done for the WC).  I think this would  provide the following
opportunities:
		<!--[if !supportLists]-->1. <!--[endif]-->The
availability of the raw  scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE
judges training  tool.  Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch
flights  together, make comments and discuss, then go back later and see
if what  they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that
flight.   There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging
training (..  ideas welcome).   
		<!--[if !supportLists]-->2. <!--[endif]-->Posting of raw
scores would  allow "judges" to after-the-fact see how they performed
compared to their  judging partners.  There is all kinds of good value
that could come  from this.  Whether noted privately or discussed
between each other,  it is good from time to time to check yourself.   
		<!--[if !supportLists]-->3. <!--[endif]-->Posting of raw
scores would  help keep the honest man honest.  By posting raw scores, I
think  there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut it:
Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, "teams", regionality, or other bias' would
be  removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges
scores  would be posted.   
		<!--[if !supportLists]-->4. <!--[endif]-->And most
importantly,  increased "transparency" in the system helps the seasoned
and new comer  alike understand the process of the contest, scoring, and
"how" the 1000,  900, or 800's came to be.  I believe that no matter
whom you are, you  want to leave a contest and feel like you (&
everyone) was dealt a  fair hand.  Transparency is the key to this.    
		<!--[if !supportLists]-->5. <!--[endif]-->OK - last one
- it takes  "scoring" which is a topic of much discussion during and
after a pattern  contest in case you haven't heard, away from a shadowy
discussion, and  brings to the open this topic which everyone is already
discussing.   This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the
conspiracy theorist and  such whom all of our districts have.
Transparency is good  J  

		I write none of  this from the sour-grapes perspective.
I love this stuff.  I  think the potential benefits from posting the
raws would out weight the  potential bad, provide more transparency for
the competitor and also provide  judges training.

		Thanks,

		Jim  W.

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________________________________

		From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>  On Behalf Of
JShulman
		Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49  PM
		To: NSRCA Mailing List
		Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we  behind the
times?

		Probably the best  reason not to have it...lol. It's bad
enough when we screw-up... I mean when  a pilot screws-up and you hear
all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the  crowd. Now just imagine the
uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver  that they are doing all
wrong! Total  Chaos!

		Regards,
		Jason
		www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com/> 
		www.shulmanaviation.com
<http://www.shulmanaviation.com/> 
		www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com/>   

		On Behalf  Of Derek  Koopowitz

		can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs"  from
the spectators.   :)

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