[NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

[Anthony Frackowiak]

Hi All,

I just want to make a few comments. I do feel that this is a decision  
that should be made by those actively competing in F3A. I started the  
thread on RCU because in Phoenix I got in between two friends who are  
absolutely at opposite ends of this issue. I personally don't care  
what the F3A guys decide to do. I just feel that the only fair way to  
schedule and run contests is to come to some sort of agreement and  
institute it District wide.

I have seen this reference to the F3A rules stating that you only fly  
P at local meets. I wish somebody would send me a link so I could see  
that somewhere. I have the F3A rules from 2009 and the only thing I  
could find was this,

Note 1: Final and semi-final flights to determine the individual  
winner are usually only required for
World and Continental Championships. For open international events,  
national championships, and
domestic competitions, the total of the three best preliminary flights  
may be used to determine the
individual winner and team placing. Further flights of Schedule F may  
be planned, depending on
local conditions and time available.

That certainly doesn't state that you only fly P at local meets. It  
definitely gives you the option of using F. In fact, it sort of says  
that any additional flights after 4 should be schedule F. I could find  
nothing that says local meets only fly P. If it's there somebody  
please point me to it. And even if you were only going to use it in  
"Championships", shouldn't it at least be used at the District  
Championships? And if you are, shouldn't it be used at other local  
meets?

Judging may be an issue. It is every time the patterns change. But I  
don't see judging being the reason why you should not fly F. There are  
problems with judging every single pattern flown in every single  
class. It's far from just an F3A issue. That's another subject with  
me, but now is not the time.

Other areas of the country are flying F. It has not caused the end of  
the world as we know it. Maybe if we do start flying F at local meets  
more will move to Masters. I don't know. I moved because I wanted to  
go the Nats and I don't want to try to learn how to fly unknowns. Way  
too much work for my current energy level. And I don't believe in  
flying F3A locally then moving to Masters for the Nats. But I don't  
think you are truly participating in the F3A event if you never fly F.  
Again, just my opinion.

As a CD I don't like the idea of the contestant picking what they're  
going to fly the day of the contest. I think it should be decided,  
advertised and that is what's done. Not voted on at the field. Now, if  
a contestant wants to fly something different then everyone else, I  
guess they have the option of doing whatever they want and taking the  
zeros. I guess the judges in the chair at the time can mark down what  
scores they think they flew, but if you didn't fly the correct  
maneuvers it would be a zero for the round. This talk of trying to  
come up with some changes to the K-factors or adjusting scores by some  
percentage make my head spin. Again, I'll do it if that is what's  
decided, but I wouldn't like it if I was still flying F3A.

As to what I am going to do for F3A at the Arvin contest, right now  
it's TBD. I'm hoping some consensus can be reached on this issue soon.

Tony


On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Tom Messer wrote:

> It would be one thing if we were deviating for the rules at our  
> local contests by NOT flying F... but we aren't, the rules do not  
> prescribe this for two day, local contests. It's also not the  
> purpose of the F sequence... as stated before that purpose is to  
> help whittle down the contestants in championship contests.
>
> Of course that doesn't mean that we shouldn't fly it, and not have  
> fun with it. I look forward to playing with it some myself...
>
> What is being proposed here is not by the rules... okay so what if  
> we all want to do it? Well then we do it and have fun with it...  
> That does not appear to be the case... So far we have the Kimbros,  
> and Steve that have spoken out... I imagine there are handful of  
> others that support it... but from what it looks like, it's  
> definitely not a majority.
>
> Tony started the discussion as it relates to his Arvin contest. Not  
> sure what the status is on his decision, but as a CD he has every  
> right to do what he wants... will be interesting to see how it goes.  
> But that was the scale of the proposal, just his contest, and it  
> expanding a bit to ask for a little guidance as to how to proceed  
> and if it was something the district would support.
>
> If proposal is expanded, to a district wide protocol of some sort,  
> then I think we should really ask ourselves this... How many of us  
> want it mandatory that we are judged on the F sequence? Making it  
> optional will not work, it's not fair or equal, and we have too many  
> type A personalities... there will be snide comments and quips  
> about, "well you didn't fly F". For those of you who don't think  
> this will happen, if you listen to the under the breath comments  
> during awards ceremonies or when final scores come out, you'll know  
> what I mean...
>
> If we don't have a majority who want that... then we should not do  
> it. Masters will swell, and the few FAI guys who remain will be left  
> to play with themselves (just a little pun there to break the  
> mood ;) ). I don't see a reason, or the logic in changing everything  
> for everybody just to help a few. What we should do, as a group, is  
> support those who want this for the Nats, and just judge a couple of  
> extra flights for them on Sat after the normal rounds are over... or  
> do it with their throw away rounds like I have said before... if  
> this still isn't good enough...
>
> A wise old man (well not THAT old, not like dirt :) ) once told me a  
> couple years ago that I should step up and do it myself and stop  
> relying on everybody else... it was a different subject, and with my  
> sparkling personality I definitely took it to heart with a skip and  
> a smile... okay, that's not true, I wrote a nasty email in  
> rebuttal... but he was right.
>
> The subject was having a contest in Fresno... nobody wanted to CD  
> it, and I and one or two others were vocal on how great of a site it  
> was and that we needed to have it and all that jazz. The wiseman  
> CD'd a couple contests a year and didn't want to do it... nobody  
> else wanted to do it... and his point to me was... if you don't like  
> that, do it yourself, we can't CD all the contests! he was right,  
> and for better or worse, I did it myself.
>
> I suggest that to the people who want F scored as part of the  
> regular FAI class... if you want it, do it at your own contest like  
> Tony might... maybe you should add another contest as well, do it  
> yourself... prove to us that it works, and that people want it. If  
> they do, the rest of us could follow...
>
> Until then, I'm afraid without a majority district wide, we won't be  
> doing this with my contest... If we do get that majority I would be  
> happy to work something out and advertise it and all that jazz.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom M
>
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Steve Hannah wrote:
>
>> This will be short since I am on my iPhone. Ha ha
>>
>> Years ago I would have agreed with Chris and Derek. That was before  
>> my IMAC days. Yes people can actually judge complex routines. Do  
>> they do a good job at it?  Not at first but they start to figure it  
>> out after a while. Sometimes it takes a lot of judge coaching.
>>
>> Second, flying the insanely complex unknowns in Advanced and  
>> Unlimited taught me how to just suck it up and do my best. You  
>> don't need to burns gallons of fuel or megawatts of electricity.  
>> You just go do your best. Sure there will be guys flying F over and  
>> over. Good for them. The majority of us are in the same boat with  
>> each other, we don't have time.   It really will make you a better  
>> flier to go try some things out of your comfort zone
>>
>> As I have heard it stated through the years, Pattern fliers can be  
>> seen as prima donnas.  I hate the thought of that. One thing that  
>> drives it home, in my opinion, is having folks be afraid to step up  
>> to the plate and blow chunks all over the sky while they butcher  
>> the routine. They don't want to look bad. Just get over it. Flying  
>> unknowns taught me how to do that. Just go out, have fun, learn  
>> from it, and relax.  So what if you blow it. Most everyone else  
>> will too. You will, however, feel a lot of accomplishment when you  
>> scores improve. And they will improve.
>>
>> Yes this will benefit the guys going to the nats. I think that is a  
>> good thing. Tighten up the judging for P (doesn't matter if we fly  
>> F or not) and get our guys some contest exposure to F. It helps our  
>> district.
>>
>> Lastly, this should not be a "pilots choice".  That screws up a lot  
>> of things. I like the idea of one scored round of F. Do well and  
>> you keep it. Blow it and it will be a drop.
>>
>> Personally, I will suck at it but I don't care. I really think it  
>> is good for the sport.  I've already seen it draw interest from my  
>> local IMAC and 3D crowd. It might help attract fliers.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, who cares about a flame suit.. lol
>>>
>>> I think it's fine, just shouldn't be mandatory.. If you make it  
>>> mandatory it takes away from the majority of FAI pilots. These  
>>> pilots (the majority) don't seem to want to fly F because they  
>>> aren't going to the nats and don't want to fly it. They are the  
>>> one's supporting the local contests right? So we should tell them  
>>> you have to fly F so that the few FAI pilots in our district that  
>>> are going to the nats can fly it and get judged? Judged by who?  
>>> Who is qualified to judge it? Heck, I don't know how to judge some  
>>> of it. Could I guess my way through it? Sure, most likely. The  
>>> first couple of guys flying it would probably be scored easier  
>>> than the last guys IMO. What will happen to those pilots if we try  
>>> to force this on them? Are their batteries (if electric) large  
>>> enough to fly the F sequence, or does this create an extra burden  
>>> on them to get bigger packs? I assume a glow guy would have a big  
>>> enough tank.. It will also create another burden by having to  
>>> setup different flight modes for the second sequence. It requires  
>>> different things of the model.
>>>
>>> On the other side, if you force people to fly both, they will  
>>> become better pilots IMO. They may lose a plane or 2 (just  
>>> kidding), but eventually it will help their skills IMO. I know  
>>> learning new sequences has helped me tremendously. Another plus is  
>>> that the guys who are judging will get to be better judges IMO.  
>>> Other districts are doing this, let's not forget.
>>>
>>> So, I am planning on moving to FAI pretty soon. Do I want to fly  
>>> both?? No, not unless I can quit my job and go fly everyday so  
>>> that I can be competitive.. Which I'm pretty sure isn't going to  
>>> happen..
>>>
>>> My advice on the situation is if someone wants to fly it, lets  
>>> have the scoring in the computer so that it's possible. It can be  
>>> done, it's not that difficult.. But don't make those who "have a  
>>> busy life outside of pattern" have to learn another sequence. If  
>>> that happens, FAI pilots are going to really dislike having to sit  
>>> in the judges seat for 3 rounds a contest.. Masters will get  
>>> really huge..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at comcast.net>
>>> To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 10:29:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests
>>>
>>> Flame suit on…
>>>
>>> Are we really ready to let our judges loose on an F schedule?    
>>> I’m serious here… we have only a few very qualified judges that  
>>> are capable of judging these sequences and we’re now going to ask  
>>> them to judge an F schedule.  I’ve seen way too many F3A pilots  
>>> fly out of the box without getting penalized, radii not flown  
>>> consistently and not being penalized, roles in lines not  
>>> positioned properly and not being penalized and then we’re going  
>>> to ask these same judges to judge a sequence with 9 snaps,  
>>> multiple elements in a maneuver and expect the outcome to be fair?
>>>
>>> I know I’ve just flipped this around into a judging issue but  
>>> that’s where I believe it lies.  Several D7 pilots want to go to  
>>> the Nats, but as we’ve seen in past years, they have not been  
>>> treated too kindly by the Nats judges and that’s because they  
>>> consistently win or place well here without flying the sequence  
>>> the way it should be flown, and when they get to the Nats they get  
>>> hammered.
>>>
>>> Find good and consistent judges for F3A and then I’d say we have a  
>>> shot at flying the P and F schedules and having an outcome that is  
>>> fair.
>>>
>>> And to answer your question, Jon… I intend to learn to fly the F  
>>> sequence as I think it’ll make me a better pilot.  It’ll take a  
>>> long time before I even consider myself contest ready with it  
>>> since I’m only now starting to fly the P sequence and I’m just  
>>> concentrating on the 1st part of it at this time.  Will I be ready  
>>> to fly F any time soon – no.  If the option is available to fly F  
>>> during a contest then I will more than likely take it provided  
>>> that I have practiced it and am comfortable with it.  That  
>>> definitely won’t be in March, April or May I’m afraid… perhaps  
>>> June onwards.  I think 4 rounds of P and 2 of F would be good with  
>>> the best 3 of P and the best F to count.  Now, for those pilots  
>>> that don’t want to fly F – they can fly all 6 rounds of P and  
>>> count their best 4.  I do not think we should exclude anyone from  
>>> flying.
>>>
>>> From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
>>> ] On Behalf Of Jon Carter
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:56 PM
>>> To: CA, AZ, HI, NV,UT
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests
>>>
>>> To:        D7 FAI pilots and those D7 pilots who are considering  
>>> flying FAI at a D7 2010 contest.
>>>
>>> From:    Jon Carter NSRCA D7 VP
>>>
>>> I am soliciting input from all D7 FAI pilots on the question of  
>>> whether to attempt to fly some F rounds at local contests. This is  
>>> currently being discussed on RCU (I have attached a link to the  
>>> discussion)
>>>
>>> http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9548995/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm
>>>
>>> I personally think that there are good points made on each “side”  
>>> of the discussion. I would like to get some feedback from all of  
>>> you (D7 FAI pilots) as to your preference. I know that not all of  
>>> you read this list either but I think that I have e-mail addresses  
>>> for most of the current FAI pilots and I know who you are! So, if  
>>> I do not hear from some of you I will be sending out some personal  
>>> e-mails.
>>>
>>> Let me state my initial assumptions:
>>>
>>> 1) We do this to have fun!
>>> 2) At a local contest it is the CD’s discretion as to how he runs  
>>> the show. The important thing is that any deviations from the  
>>> “standard” format be announced well in advance.
>>> 3) A set of D7 guidelines to assist a CD with this decision and a  
>>> mechanism to handle it would be a “good” thing.
>>> 4) It should never be mandatory to fly the F sequence at a local  
>>> contest. (This is strongly implied in the FAI rulebook)
>>>
>>> Thanks guys, I look forward to hearing from you.
>>>
>>> Jon Carter
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
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