[NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

[Tom Messer]

It would be one thing if we were deviating for the rules at our local  
contests by NOT flying F... but we aren't, the rules do not prescribe  
this for two day, local contests. It's also not the purpose of the F  
sequence... as stated before that purpose is to help whittle down the  
contestants in championship contests.

Of course that doesn't mean that we shouldn't fly it, and not have fun  
with it. I look forward to playing with it some myself...

What is being proposed here is not by the rules... okay so what if we  
all want to do it? Well then we do it and have fun with it... That  
does not appear to be the case... So far we have the Kimbros, and  
Steve that have spoken out... I imagine there are handful of others  
that support it... but from what it looks like, it's definitely not a  
majority.

Tony started the discussion as it relates to his Arvin contest. Not  
sure what the status is on his decision, but as a CD he has every  
right to do what he wants... will be interesting to see how it goes.  
But that was the scale of the proposal, just his contest, and it  
expanding a bit to ask for a little guidance as to how to proceed and  
if it was something the district would support.

If proposal is expanded, to a district wide protocol of some sort,  
then I think we should really ask ourselves this... How many of us  
want it mandatory that we are judged on the F sequence? Making it  
optional will not work, it's not fair or equal, and we have too many  
type A personalities... there will be snide comments and quips about,  
"well you didn't fly F". For those of you who don't think this will  
happen, if you listen to the under the breath comments during awards  
ceremonies or when final scores come out, you'll know what I mean...

If we don't have a majority who want that... then we should not do it.  
Masters will swell, and the few FAI guys who remain will be left to  
play with themselves (just a little pun there to break the mood ;) ).  
I don't see a reason, or the logic in changing everything for  
everybody just to help a few. What we should do, as a group, is  
support those who want this for the Nats, and just judge a couple of  
extra flights for them on Sat after the normal rounds are over... or  
do it with their throw away rounds like I have said before... if this  
still isn't good enough...

A wise old man (well not THAT old, not like dirt :) ) once told me a  
couple years ago that I should step up and do it myself and stop  
relying on everybody else... it was a different subject, and with my  
sparkling personality I definitely took it to heart with a skip and a  
smile... okay, that's not true, I wrote a nasty email in rebuttal...  
but he was right.

The subject was having a contest in Fresno... nobody wanted to CD it,  
and I and one or two others were vocal on how great of a site it was  
and that we needed to have it and all that jazz. The wiseman CD'd a  
couple contests a year and didn't want to do it... nobody else wanted  
to do it... and his point to me was... if you don't like that, do it  
yourself, we can't CD all the contests! he was right, and for better  
or worse, I did it myself.

I suggest that to the people who want F scored as part of the regular  
FAI class... if you want it, do it at your own contest like Tony  
might... maybe you should add another contest as well, do it  
yourself... prove to us that it works, and that people want it. If  
they do, the rest of us could follow...

Until then, I'm afraid without a majority district wide, we won't be  
doing this with my contest... If we do get that majority I would be  
happy to work something out and advertise it and all that jazz.

Regards,

Tom M



On Mar 5, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Steve Hannah wrote:

> This will be short since I am on my iPhone. Ha ha
>
> Years ago I would have agreed with Chris and Derek. That was before  
> my IMAC days. Yes people can actually judge complex routines. Do  
> they do a good job at it?  Not at first but they start to figure it  
> out after a while. Sometimes it takes a lot of judge coaching.
>
> Second, flying the insanely complex unknowns in Advanced and  
> Unlimited taught me how to just suck it up and do my best. You don't  
> need to burns gallons of fuel or megawatts of electricity. You just  
> go do your best. Sure there will be guys flying F over and over.  
> Good for them. The majority of us are in the same boat with each  
> other, we don't have time.   It really will make you a better flier  
> to go try some things out of your comfort zone
>
> As I have heard it stated through the years, Pattern fliers can be  
> seen as prima donnas.  I hate the thought of that. One thing that  
> drives it home, in my opinion, is having folks be afraid to step up  
> to the plate and blow chunks all over the sky while they butcher the  
> routine. They don't want to look bad. Just get over it. Flying  
> unknowns taught me how to do that. Just go out, have fun, learn from  
> it, and relax.  So what if you blow it. Most everyone else will too.  
> You will, however, feel a lot of accomplishment when you scores  
> improve. And they will improve.
>
> Yes this will benefit the guys going to the nats. I think that is a  
> good thing. Tighten up the judging for P (doesn't matter if we fly F  
> or not) and get our guys some contest exposure to F. It helps our  
> district.
>
> Lastly, this should not be a "pilots choice".  That screws up a lot  
> of things. I like the idea of one scored round of F. Do well and you  
> keep it. Blow it and it will be a drop.
>
> Personally, I will suck at it but I don't care. I really think it is  
> good for the sport.  I've already seen it draw interest from my  
> local IMAC and 3D crowd. It might help attract fliers.
>
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> Ah, who cares about a flame suit.. lol
>>
>> I think it's fine, just shouldn't be mandatory.. If you make it  
>> mandatory it takes away from the majority of FAI pilots. These  
>> pilots (the majority) don't seem to want to fly F because they  
>> aren't going to the nats and don't want to fly it. They are the  
>> one's supporting the local contests right? So we should tell them  
>> you have to fly F so that the few FAI pilots in our district that  
>> are going to the nats can fly it and get judged? Judged by who? Who  
>> is qualified to judge it? Heck, I don't know how to judge some of  
>> it. Could I guess my way through it? Sure, most likely. The first  
>> couple of guys flying it would probably be scored easier than the  
>> last guys IMO. What will happen to those pilots if we try to force  
>> this on them? Are their batteries (if electric) large enough to fly  
>> the F sequence, or does this create an extra burden on them to get  
>> bigger packs? I assume a glow guy would have a big enough tank.. It  
>> will also create another burden by having to setup different flight  
>> modes for the second sequence. It requires different things of the  
>> model.
>>
>> On the other side, if you force people to fly both, they will  
>> become better pilots IMO. They may lose a plane or 2 (just  
>> kidding), but eventually it will help their skills IMO. I know  
>> learning new sequences has helped me tremendously. Another plus is  
>> that the guys who are judging will get to be better judges IMO.  
>> Other districts are doing this, let's not forget.
>>
>> So, I am planning on moving to FAI pretty soon. Do I want to fly  
>> both?? No, not unless I can quit my job and go fly everyday so that  
>> I can be competitive.. Which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen..
>>
>> My advice on the situation is if someone wants to fly it, lets have  
>> the scoring in the computer so that it's possible. It can be done,  
>> it's not that difficult.. But don't make those who "have a busy  
>> life outside of pattern" have to learn another sequence. If that  
>> happens, FAI pilots are going to really dislike having to sit in  
>> the judges seat for 3 rounds a contest.. Masters will get really  
>> huge..
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at comcast.net>
>> To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 10:29:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests
>>
>> Flame suit on…
>>
>> Are we really ready to let our judges loose on an F schedule?   I’m  
>> serious here… we have only a few very qualified judges that are  
>> capable of judging these sequences and we’re now going to ask them  
>> to judge an F schedule.  I’ve seen way too many F3A pilots fly out  
>> of the box without getting penalized, radii not flown consistently  
>> and not being penalized, roles in lines not positioned properly and  
>> not being penalized and then we’re going to ask these same judges  
>> to judge a sequence with 9 snaps, multiple elements in a maneuver  
>> and expect the outcome to be fair?
>>
>> I know I’ve just flipped this around into a judging issue but  
>> that’s where I believe it lies.  Several D7 pilots want to go to  
>> the Nats, but as we’ve seen in past years, they have not been  
>> treated too kindly by the Nats judges and that’s because they  
>> consistently win or place well here without flying the sequence the  
>> way it should be flown, and when they get to the Nats they get  
>> hammered.
>>
>> Find good and consistent judges for F3A and then I’d say we have a  
>> shot at flying the P and F schedules and having an outcome that is  
>> fair.
>>
>> And to answer your question, Jon… I intend to learn to fly the F  
>> sequence as I think it’ll make me a better pilot.  It’ll take a  
>> long time before I even consider myself contest ready with it since  
>> I’m only now starting to fly the P sequence and I’m just  
>> concentrating on the 1st part of it at this time.  Will I be ready  
>> to fly F any time soon – no.  If the option is available to fly F  
>> during a contest then I will more than likely take it provided that  
>> I have practiced it and am comfortable with it.  That definitely  
>> won’t be in March, April or May I’m afraid… perhaps June onwards.   
>> I think 4 rounds of P and 2 of F would be good with the best 3 of P  
>> and the best F to count.  Now, for those pilots that don’t want to  
>> fly F – they can fly all 6 rounds of P and count their best 4.  I  
>> do not think we should exclude anyone from flying.
>>
>> From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
>> ] On Behalf Of Jon Carter
>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:56 PM
>> To: CA, AZ, HI, NV,UT
>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests
>>
>> To:        D7 FAI pilots and those D7 pilots who are considering  
>> flying FAI at a D7 2010 contest.
>>
>> From:    Jon Carter NSRCA D7 VP
>>
>> I am soliciting input from all D7 FAI pilots on the question of  
>> whether to attempt to fly some F rounds at local contests. This is  
>> currently being discussed on RCU (I have attached a link to the  
>> discussion)
>>
>> http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9548995/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm
>>
>> I personally think that there are good points made on each “side”  
>> of the discussion. I would like to get some feedback from all of  
>> you (D7 FAI pilots) as to your preference. I know that not all of  
>> you read this list either but I think that I have e-mail addresses  
>> for most of the current FAI pilots and I know who you are! So, if I  
>> do not hear from some of you I will be sending out some personal e- 
>> mails.
>>
>> Let me state my initial assumptions:
>>
>> 1) We do this to have fun!
>> 2) At a local contest it is the CD’s discretion as to how he runs  
>> the show. The important thing is that any deviations from the  
>> “standard” format be announced well in advance.
>> 3) A set of D7 guidelines to assist a CD with this decision and a  
>> mechanism to handle it would be a “good” thing.
>> 4) It should never be mandatory to fly the F sequence at a local  
>> contest. (This is strongly implied in the FAI rulebook)
>>
>> Thanks guys, I look forward to hearing from you.
>>
>> Jon Carter
>>
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