<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">It would be one thing if we were deviating for the rules at our local contests by NOT flying F... but we aren't, the rules do not prescribe this for two day, local contests. It's also not the purpose of the F sequence... as stated before that purpose is to help whittle down the contestants in championship contests.<div><br></div><div>Of course that doesn't mean that we shouldn't fly it, and not have fun with it. I look forward to playing with it some myself... </div><div><br></div><div>What is being proposed here is not by the rules... okay so what if we all want to do it? Well then we do it and have fun with it... That does not appear to be the case... So far we have the Kimbros, and Steve that have spoken out... I imagine there are handful of others that support it... but from what it looks like, it's definitely not a majority. </div><div><br></div><div>Tony started the discussion as it relates to his Arvin contest. Not sure what the status is on his decision, but as a CD he has every right to do what he wants... will be interesting to see how it goes. But that was the scale of the proposal, just his contest, and it expanding a bit to ask for a little guidance as to how to proceed and if it was something the district would support.</div><div><br></div><div>If proposal is expanded, to a district wide protocol of some sort, then I think we should really ask ourselves this... How many of us want it mandatory that we are judged on the F sequence? Making it optional will not work, it's not fair or equal, and we have too many type A personalities... there will be snide comments and quips about, "well you didn't fly F". For those of you who don't think this will happen, if you listen to the under the breath comments during awards ceremonies or when final scores come out, you'll know what I mean...</div><div><br></div><div>If we don't have a majority who want that... then we should not do it. Masters will swell, and the few FAI guys who remain will be left to play with themselves (just a little pun there to break the mood ;) ). I don't see a reason, or the logic in changing everything for everybody just to help a few. What we should do, as a group, is support those who want this for the Nats, and just judge a couple of extra flights for them on Sat after the normal rounds are over... or do it with their throw away rounds like I have said before... if this still isn't good enough...</div><div><br></div><div>A wise old man (well not THAT old, not like dirt :) ) once told me a couple years ago that I should step up and do it myself and stop relying on everybody else... it was a different subject, and with my sparkling personality I definitely took it to heart with a skip and a smile... okay, that's not true, I wrote a nasty email in rebuttal... but he was right.</div><div><br></div><div>The subject was having a contest in Fresno... nobody wanted to CD it, and I and one or two others were vocal on how great of a site it was and that we needed to have it and all that jazz. The wiseman CD'd a couple contests a year and didn't want to do it... nobody else wanted to do it... and his point to me was... if you don't like that, do it yourself, we can't CD all the contests! he was right, and for better or worse, I did it myself.</div><div><br></div><div>I suggest that to the people who want F scored as part of the regular FAI class... if you want it, do it at your own contest like Tony might... maybe you should add another contest as well, do it yourself... prove to us that it works, and that people want it. If they do, the rest of us could follow...</div><div><br></div><div>Until then, I'm afraid without a majority district wide, we won't be doing this with my contest... If we do get that majority I would be happy to work something out and advertise it and all that jazz.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Tom M</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Mar 5, 2010, at 5:34 AM, Steve Hannah wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>This will be short since I am on my iPhone. Ha ha</div><div><br></div><div>Years ago I would have agreed with Chris and Derek. That was before my IMAC days. Yes people can actually judge complex routines. Do they do a good job at it? Not at first but they start to figure it out after a while. Sometimes it takes a lot of judge coaching. </div><div><br></div><div>Second, flying the insanely complex unknowns in Advanced and Unlimited taught me how to just suck it up and do my best. You don't need to burns gallons of fuel or megawatts of electricity. You just go do your best. Sure there will be guys flying F over and over. Good for them. The majority of us are in the same boat with each other, we don't have time. It really will make you a better flier to go try some things out of your comfort zone </div><div><br></div><div>As I have heard it stated through the years, Pattern fliers can be seen as prima donnas. I hate the thought of that. One thing that drives it home, in my opinion, is having folks be afraid to step up to the plate and blow chunks all over the sky while they butcher the routine. They don't want to look bad. Just get over it. Flying unknowns taught me how to do that. Just go out, have fun, learn from it, and relax. So what if you blow it. Most everyone else will too. You will, however, feel a lot of accomplishment when you scores improve. And they will improve. </div><div><br></div><div>Yes this will benefit the guys going to the nats. I think that is a good thing. Tighten up the judging for P (doesn't matter if we fly F or not) and get our guys some contest exposure to F. It helps our district. </div><div><br></div><div>Lastly, this should not be a "pilots choice". That screws up a lot of things. I like the idea of one scored round of F. Do well and you keep it. Blow it and it will be a drop. </div><div><br></div><div>Personally, I will suck at it but I don't care. I really think it is good for the sport. I've already seen it draw interest from my local IMAC and 3D crowd. It might help attract fliers. </div><div><br></div><div>Steve</div><div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <<a href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><div>Ah, who cares about a flame suit.. lol</div><div> </div><div>I think it's fine, just shouldn't be mandatory.. If you make it mandatory it takes away from the majority of FAI pilots. These pilots (the majority) don't seem to want to fly F because they aren't going to the nats and don't want to fly it. They are the one's supporting the local contests right? So we should tell them you have to fly F so that the few FAI pilots in our district that are going to the nats can fly it and get judged? Judged by who? Who is qualified to judge it? Heck, I don't know how to judge some of it. Could I guess my way through it? Sure, most likely. The first couple of guys flying it would probably be scored easier than the last guys IMO. What will happen to those pilots if we try to force this on them? Are their batteries (if electric) large enough to fly the F sequence, or does this create an extra burden on them to get bigger packs? I assume a glow guy would have a big enough tank.. It will also create another burden by having to setup different flight modes for the second sequence. It requires different things of the model.</div><div> </div><div>On the other side, if you force people to fly both, they will become better pilots IMO. They may lose a plane or 2 (just kidding), but eventually it will help their skills IMO. I know learning new sequences has helped me tremendously. Another plus is that the guys who are judging will get to be better judges IMO. Other districts are doing this, let's not forget.</div><div> </div><div>So, I am planning on moving to FAI pretty soon. Do I want to fly both?? No, not unless I can quit my job and go fly everyday so that I can be competitive.. Which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen..</div><div> </div><div>My advice on the situation is if someone wants to fly it, lets have the scoring in the computer so that it's possible. It can be done, it's not that difficult.. But don't make those who "have a busy life outside of pattern" have to learn another sequence. If that happens, FAI pilots are going to really dislike having to sit in the judges seat for 3 rounds a contest.. Masters will get really huge..</div><div> </div><div><br> </div><div><strong><em><font color="#0000bf" size="3" face="comic sans ms">Chris</font></em></strong></div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div><br></div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><br><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Derek Koopowitz <<a href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@comcast.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">derekkoopowitz@comcast.net</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>"CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-dist7@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">nsrca-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thu, March 4, 2010 10:29:48 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests<br></font><br><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">Flame suit on…</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">Are we really ready to let our judges loose on an F schedule? I’m serious here… we have only a few very qualified judges that are capable of judging these sequences and we’re now going to ask them to judge an F schedule. I’ve seen way too many F3A pilots fly out of the box without getting penalized, radii not flown consistently and not being penalized, roles in lines not positioned properly and not being penalized and then we’re going to ask these same judges to judge a sequence with 9 snaps, multiple elements in a maneuver and expect the outcome to be fair?</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">I know I’ve just flipped this around into a judging issue but that’s where I believe it lies. Several D7 pilots want to go to the Nats, but as we’ve seen in past years, they have not been treated too kindly by the Nats judges and that’s because they consistently win or place well here without flying the sequence the way it should be flown, and when they get to the Nats they get hammered.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">Find good and consistent judges for F3A and then I’d say we have a shot at flying the P and F schedules and having an outcome that is fair.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">And to answer your question, Jon… I intend to learn to fly the F sequence as I think it’ll make me a better pilot. It’ll take a long time before I even consider myself contest ready with it since I’m only now starting to fly the P sequence and I’m just concentrating on the 1<sup>st</sup><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>part of it at this time. Will I be ready to fly F any time soon – no. If the option is available to fly F during a contest then I will more than likely take it provided that I have practiced it and am comfortable with it. That definitely won’t be in March, April or May I’m afraid… perhaps June onwards. I think 4 rounds of P and 2 of F would be good with the best 3 of P and the best F to count. Now, for those pilots that don’t want to fly F – they can fly all 6 rounds of P and count their best 4. I do not think we should exclude anyone from flying.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "> </span></p><div><div style="border-bottom-width: medium; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial; border-left-width: medium; border-left-style: none; border-left-color: initial; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; padding-right: 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-style: solid; border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none; border-right-color: initial; padding-top: 3pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><b><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Jon Carter<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:56 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>CA, AZ, HI, NV,UT<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests</span></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "> </p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">To: D7 FAI pilots and those D7 pilots who are considering flying FAI at a D7 2010 contest.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">From: Jon Carter NSRCA D7 VP</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">I am soliciting input from all D7 FAI pilots on the question of whether to attempt to fly some F rounds at local contests. This is currently being discussed on RCU (I have attached a link to the discussion)</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "><a href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9548995/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9548995/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm</a></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">I personally think that there are good points made on each “side” of the discussion. I would like to get some feedback from all of you (D7 FAI pilots) as to your preference. I know that not all of you read this list either but I think that I have e-mail addresses for most of the current FAI pilots and I know who you are! So, if I do not hear from some of you I will be sending out some personal e-mails.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">Let me state my initial assumptions:</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">1) We do this to have fun! </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">2) At a local contest it is the CD’s discretion as to how he runs the show. The important thing is that any deviations from the “standard” format be announced well in advance.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">3) A set of D7 guidelines to assist a CD with this decision and a mechanism to handle it would be a “good” thing.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">4) It should never be mandatory to fly the F sequence at a local contest. (This is strongly implied in the FAI rulebook)</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">Thanks guys, I look forward to hearing from you.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: serif; "><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">Jon Carter</span></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>NSRCA-dist7 mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</a></span><br></div></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-dist7 mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">NSRCA-dist7@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>