[NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System

Fri Oct 30 14:07:56 AKDT 2015

The district can have the small printer I have. Very compact it works 
and I got it for free.

Joe Lachowski

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 03:23 PM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1 wrote:

Thank you again Dana for making the extra effort! Anyone else to join 
the D1 Scoring Team?

Scott, what is the minimal system that would run Master Score? Also, how 
old of a system will run Master Score effectively. Just trying to get a 
sense if we could collect some of people unused not so current laptops 
for scoring purposes as opposed to buying equipment.

Another issue is output. Trying to keep a printer running outdoors can 
be quite a challenge but is key to generating scores. I wound up writing 
them on poster board but we need to have scores available after each 
round. Anyone have ideas on how we can streamline this equipment need?

Anthony

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
From: danamaenia at me.com
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:14:15 -0400
CC: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com
To: davel322 at comcast.net; nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org

Agree with Dave’s observations about manpower, our recent contests and 
the problems to solve except for the funding part.  Our contests have 
been friendly & small; what proceeds there are need to go to the clubs 
that have closed their airfields for the day or weekend so we can have 
our contests.  Perhaps if we had large turnouts like they have in D7, 
fund raising might be feasible but that is just not realistic for D1. 
 We are having fun at our small turnout contests so I don’t see that as 
the most rational problem to try to solve, given the recent history of 
D1 in the 5 years that I have been competing. 

Agree also with Anthony on solutions.  This year is a off year for both 
Sequence Committee and Contest Board, so I can volunteer for scoring 
team work in D1 if others will also support Anthony's idea.  We would 
need Scott Smith’s help to make this completely successful, IMO.  If 
Scott would contact me off thread, I can share some observations and ask 
for some specifics on how to solve.  We would not need a lot of 
volunteers to make this idea work for D1, but one or two more who either 
have reliable laptops running MS smoothly, know how to correctly install 
and operate MS, or would be willing to work during the off-season so we 
are ready to go with updated, primary and back-up computers (and 
printers) known to operate for our 2016 contests.  We can think through 
staffing for scoring ideas once the laptop solution is in sight. Will be 
much easier than a conversion to the Vogel system for 2016 IMO.  Dana

On Oct 28, 2015, at 11:49 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

D1 has never done much in the way of raising funds for the District.

IF we start raising funds for the District….what is the best way to 
spend it?

Some (somewhat) random thoughts -

Manpower is much more of a problem at contests now than in the past.  
More contests are being run by fewer people, and at smaller contests, 
running a single flightline is the only option.  If the contest were 
more efficient to run….that would help….the Vogel system is efficient 
(when working properly with a trained person to set it up and watch over 
it).

Many of the problems I see at contests are due to inadequate planning / 
prep.  This is not a knock on the CDs or organizers….it is a reflection 
of ONE guy putting together the event and not having time to do a dry 
run, or operation check on all the equipment prior to the contest….so 
problems end up being found and addressed on the day of the contest.  A 
Vogel system will not help much here….and may be more difficult since it 
requires a greater level of knowledge/skill to get it right.

I think the Vogel scoring system may (in time) increase the range of 
scores used, and reduce impression judging….the effect may not be as 
pronounced as predicted.  Is $2500 best spent on a Vogel system or on 
encouraging people to attend judging seminars, clinics, sponsoring 
pattern primers, etc?  Or on a “contest” laptop to be passed along 
contest to contest….and setup by a savvy scorekeeper at the beginning of 
each season?

If we want $$$ for D1 (for whatever use)…we can “skim” a little from 
each contest entry fee.  We can run 50/50 raffles at every event.  We 
can sell D1 hats, Tshirts, etc.  And we can do a lot of these things at 
WRAM show and look for opportunities to do so at other events.

Regards,

Dave

From: NSRCA-dist1 [mailto:nsrca-dist1-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
<mailto:nsrca-dist1-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ] On Behalf Of Anthony 
Romano via NSRCA-dist1
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:50 PM
To: district one <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org 
<mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System

Thanks Dana. You beat me to the punch on a lot of this. 

My takeaway is that we still have some CDs struggling with scoring and 
Master Score setup resulting in the last minute spreadsheet and 
subsequent hair pulling. 

The idea of a few designated D1 laptops/printers and individuals to 
assist in scoring set up would be the first step before adding 
complexity. Now who would volunteer to part of a scoring team to manage 
this?

Anthony

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:52:27 -0400
To: vze23c3q at gmail.com <mailto:vze23c3q at gmail.com> 
; nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
From: nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>

Good conversation!  I agree with John that there is a consistency issue 
to solve.  The problem I’ve observed is around legacy laptops not always 
reliability running Master Scoring.  Perhaps Scott can consult with us 
and we can see what can be done on a local level before contest season 
begins?  Maybe we need a tech session at WRAM where CDs or score keepers 
can bring in their laptops for a tune-up (or assessment if the equipment 
is not up to the job)?

No doubt there are many advantages to Peter Vogel’s system if it can be 
digested by those who choose to use it, but it remains to be seen if it 
changes judging behavior or outcomes.  Perhaps not as much as D7 would 
like us to believe?  I have not used it yet myself, but I go with Ed on 
the point about noting deductions as I see them.  The tech problem I see 
in D1 would not necessarily be solved if we just have new problems that 
come with the new gear.  Sometimes less is more, especially when the 
main activity is competitively flying model aircraft, can be complex 
enough at (the wrong) times!

To Joe’s point about better judging, D1 made a huge step forward this 
year in having a well attended Judging Clinic.  We should continue this 
so that all can improve our skills and assist the newcomers and growing 
Sportsman class maintain interest and gain competency.  Will be critical 
as they challenge Intermediate. We might even think of holding a second 
one in NJ or PA if one of the clubs that is not hosting a contest is 
interested in education as a more managable alternative.  (Mike, 
interested?)  Will help D1 get more people out to contests, or at least 
come back again in 2016, if they feel in the know.

To Mike’s question, the investment is one of time rather than money (D1 
has none I think), and adding even one new contest to the calendar is a 
major committment for a flying club.  We actually have enough contests 
so my interest would be improving the quality of each that we have and 
increasing attendance, rather than holding more of them.  There is never 
enough stick time, practice, practice, LOL!

We have a terrific DVP in Anthony who had done a great job for D1 in 
2015.  We need to return the favor and all get a little more involved 
doing things in D1 as he has a new job and perhaps much less time to 
practice and contribute.  We all have great ideas, if we can put some of 
those to work on a proactive basis, D1 should continue to thrive in ’16! 
 As for raising $2,500 for the new system, perhaps we could just start 
with tending to the local laptops first so next season runs a little 
smoother for the CD’s and their non-combatant scoring volunteers (or 
wives).  Will make the contests more engaging for the newcomers too if 
results are not so painful to eek out or wait on.  That and judging 
clinic(s) will help us keep up the momentum.  Other ideas?

On Oct 28, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Scott Smith via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

Score distribution of 4 contests using the E-Scribe and 4 using paper.  
Slightly higher scores overall with E-Scribe, but no difference below 
6...I have to admit, that isn't quite what I expected!

(screen capture below in case it gets clipped)

<image.png>

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Michael DiGennaro via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

Folks, 
 I may be a newbie to Pattern but I have vast experience in complex 
instant scoring systems. In this case there is only a "cool factor" and 
in my opinion no measurable affect on the outcome or attendance of a 
contest. 
 If D1 is to invest hard cash into something perhaps some more actual 
events/contests would be nice. Would our D1 folks benefit more from 
slick scoring or more flying? 

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:02 AM, JOE LACHOWSKI via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

Actually, there needs to be more focus on getting people to the 
contests. 

Joe Lachowski

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Ed Alt wrote:
Yep!

On Oct 28, 2015, at 10:52 AM, JOE LACHOWSKI via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

I never look at scores. It only makes me angry. Only interested in 
results relative to my fellow competitors. LOL. Focusing on having 
better qualified and a bigger pool of judges than an automated scoring 
program is more important. I prefer writing on paper no matter what and 
will never use an automated system when I judge.

Joe Lachowski

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Scott Smith via NSRCA-dist1 wrote:
I think, more than anything, Peter's system provides for better 
judging.  Points are deducted as defects are seen; no more impression 
judging.  If no defects are seen, it's a 10.  If numerous defects are 
flown, a 1 or 0 is easily possible.  Where as how many actually write a 
1?   It also allows for the judge to never have take their eyes off the 
airplane to record a score.   

The logistics of moving scores and eliminating transcription errors is 
just gravy. 

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 9:33 AM, John Ford via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

I think that we need to remember what the core problem is…

The core problem isn't the choice of scoring system, hi-tech, lo-tech, 
or anything else. 

The NSRCA's mission is to provide Contests and Contest Experiences to 
its members. That means that the local contest is king of everything we 
do and has the greatest influence on how our sport evolves and lives. 
(Sorry, but the NATS are a statistically trivial part of all NSRCA 
activity) 

 From the perspective of a new Sportsman, THE SINGLE BIGGEST DEAL in 
his/her mind is seeing their score after the first round of their first 
contest…that's it. 

In the Districts (I've seen several, not only D1), we have 
volunteers/CD's who run the current "manual" software very very well, 
without a hitch, and posting rounds a few minutes after the last pilot 
lands. Within the same districts, there are contests where scores are 
simply not available at all until Sunday afternoon. We even see contests 
where an "on-the-spot" excel spreadsheet gets created on Saturday 
morning because of an unresolvable glitch in the software. 

So we have a consistency issue to solve, not necessarily a major 
technology obstacle to overcome. 

Probably relatively easy to solve the former, and much more demanding on 
someone's time to solve the latter via Peter's system.

Just my opinion…

John Ford

On Oct 28, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

It’s a system Matt, and someone needs to set-up WiFi at each contest so 
that the scores are passed to the computer as the judges record them.  
Would require a non-trivial level of knowledge, training and commitment 
to implement and maintain in any District; that said, not insurmountable 
if that’s what any District wants to do and has volunteers who will see 
it through. What is perhaps as interesting is that how our members wish 
to score rounds at a contest?  There is a certain simplicity in the way 
we do it now, with pencil and paper, that is perhaps not something that 
all would like to discard for recording downgrades.  We could say that 
if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it; but to be honest that is not entirely 
the case, that what we do now is not broke; but Vogel’s solution is only 
one possible way to address what sometimes does not work well at our D1 
contests. What do others think?

On Oct 28, 2015, at 8:06 AM, rcmaster199 at aol.com 
<mailto:rcmaster199 at aol.com>  wrote:

I want to qualify my comments. I only have a passing interest in Peter's 
scoring system, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. 
Bottom line, "I think" that it scores each maneuver directly into a 
database and produces immediate results after each pilot has flown. 
That's really cool! If I understand it right.

I think that for D1 it's likely a mater of logistics. How many contests 
are there and what is the real workload the system likely to alleviate? 
Having the instant response is a nice to have but is it absolutely 
necessary? Are the required people who have been doing the job no longer 
available? Or is it one big hassle every Saturday morning and that's the 
real benefit? But someone still needs to manage something with this 
software, don't they?

Money: Chances are that you the pilots will need to put up the 
money. You may ask the NSRCA board for assistance and might get 200$. 
And what about new pilots coming into pattern (in D1)? When do they 
participate with their wallets?

Is the app enough technology to help a contest or do you have to have 
the full blown system?

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org 
<mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> >
To: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com 
<mailto:anthonyr105 at hotmail.com> >; CT, DE, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, PA, 
RI, VT, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org 
<mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Wed, Oct 28, 2015 6:27 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System

Aside from the obvious question of where would the $2,500 investment 
come from, I wish I could say that contest scoring has NOT been an issue 
in D1, and that we really don’t need a some solution.  With all due 
respect to our clubs, CDs, their assistants and volunteers who have been 
doing their very best with what they have to work with; we have had 
challenges in recent contests with legacy laptop computers and that 
remains an issue, albeit a local one for contests in 2016.  Now I would 
not go so far as to say that Vogel's solution is the right fit for D1; 
but it’s availability does beg the question if we can do better as a 
District; and raise the question if there is an alternative to 
continuing with the various local laptops? Perhaps D1 acquiring/updating 
a laptop or two to support contests at the District level as an 
intermediate step?  If we cannot supply/support a D1 laptop or two, and 
manage the logistics of who has it, where & when, then we are not likely 
to pull off a full conversion to Vogel’s system. 

My observation is that we have enough capable volunteers at each contest 
to enter scores, many of whom are now familiar with Master Scoring 
software; but we have had an uneven experience with the the laptops 
themselves in recent years.  What do others think and is this an issue 
we want to address as D1 (or just let it stay local knowing that 
contests may not go as smoothly as they could if we had some robust D1 
hardware backing our local efforts)?  Perhaps if we can manage the 
logistics of shepherding two D1 scoring computers around in 2016, we 
might upgrade to Vogel’s system in the future once additional members 
have been exposed to it enough to decide if they want to use it at their 
local contests (most D1 members do not travel to the Nats)?

On Oct 27, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1 
<nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> > 
wrote:

Please read the below message from Peter Vogel about the electronic 
scoring system he brought to the Canandaigua contest this year. Should 
D1 invest in one of these systems? Anyone willing to manage this?

Anthony

After 2 very successful trouble-free runs at the SAM contest 2 weeks ago 
and the Cajun NATS last week.  Last Monday I finally decided it was time 
to submit the app formally to the app store rather than relying on 
development loads to individual iPod touches or TestFlight 30-day conk 
beta loads for my friends in Australia who have been experimenting with 
the app.  As more districts reach out to me with orders for fully 
configured setups I wanted to make sure I had a path to get software 
updates out to devices in a timely manner.   

So I'm pleased to announce that as of today the PatternScoring app for 
iOS is live on the App Store as a free app!

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/patternscoring/id1018433564?mt=8 
<https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/patternscoring/id1018433564?mt=8>

If you've never used the scribe app before, feel free to download and, 
with a good internet connection, use the "demo contest" mode to play 
with it.  Naturally the intent is to use it with a game controller, but 
the buttons on the screen with the picture of the game controller do 
work to give you a flavor for how things work.

If you are using it on iOS 8, you will notice that the voice is a little 
bit fast.  That's because iOS 9 changed the pace of the voice 
synthesizer and I submitted the version to work best with the latest iOS 
(9).  

I've also completed a complete Bill of Materials for the contest scoring 
system, including two handy rolling cases with custom-cut foam for 
everything needed (except the laptop) to run a contest, I sell these at 
my cost of $2500, fully configured to run a contest out of the box 
(i.e.: I'm not trying to make money on this).  D8 just bought one, and 
D7 has bought two. If any other districts have an interest in getting 
one or more sets, please contact me directly and we can make appropriate 
arrangements.  Please make sure you have one or more people in the 
district who are willing and able to take on the running of scoring at a 
contest using the system.  I'm making continuous refinements to the 
system to make it easier for anyone to run scoring, but it does require 
a certain level of comfort and familiarity with technology in general.

Thanks!

Peter+

-- 

Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training

Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark

Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X

Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)

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