[NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?

[tjpritchett at aol.com]

I tend to agree/think this way.  Closed geometry maneuvers (Squares, Immelman's Triangles 8's....) should not have overlapping lines.  Square's have 4 sides, not 5.  The Aresti's are misleading on that point, as they show a lot of overlap. The only way to avoid overlapping would be to consider the maneuver as beginning a the first departure from the horizontal entry line, and complete judging when they come 360deg to the same point, minus and plus the horizontal entry/exit lines.  
Where this is evident is with rolls centered on the legs.  If we start judging on center, with an entry line preceding, and then there's a rolling element right on center, the maneuver has begun, or ended.  A square with 1/2rolls on center is:  pull,roll,pull,roll,pull roll,pull,roll.  We can't say the maneuver finishes in the center when the pilot is 1/2 way done his roll. But if it begins/ends with the pull, everything iron's out.  
We could probably do a better job with Aresti's and Descriptions defining start/stop points, if we agree on the rules.
-----Original Message-----
From: davel322 via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
To: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2019 10:09 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?

In the case of a square loop at center flown from right to left.....
Is the suggestion that the entirety of the maneuver includes a line of 50 yards to the right of the downline, and 50 yards left of the up line?  So the bottom line of the maneuver is in effect being flown and judged twice?
Seems to me it would be more practical to judge 50 yards prior to the first radius, in this case, the pull to vertical.  Judging would cease when the plane passes 50 yards past the entry radius.
Regards, 
Dave
Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note8.
Apologies in advance for any typos undoubtedly introduced by auto correct and / or talk to text. 
-------- Original message --------From: Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> Date: 7/11/19 09:58 (GMT-05:00) To: Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com>, NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start? 
I agree with you in principle, Don… but in order for the maneuver to look like a square, and be proportional, then the straight line in (unknown line length) should begin before the horizontal line at the bottom.  Stu’s original question was what happens if the half Cuban is flown large and only finishes at center or after center, does one start judging at the pull up or is there a downgrade right away.    I’ve always visualized what the maneuver should look like once the maneuver starts and based on the first pull that gives me a basis for where it should have begun in order for me to give max points for symmetry and being proportional.  My point about the 50+ yards is that the + is the unknown line length (not the 50 yards as the straight line in length).  From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Reply-To: Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com>, NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:11 AM
To: NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?  My question would be, doesn’t the last horizontal line of the square form part of the square.  FAI: All manoeuvres must be entered and exited with straight and level upright or inverted flight of recognisable length.  AMA: Each time the model passes in front of the judges, a maneuver must be executed….  All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line. I can’t find any reference to the length of this line except in the case of unscored turnarounds where it must be at least 15 meters.  I’ve always judged these type maneuvers as if they start at center with a recognizable line before center.  In the square, the final leg connects and finishes the maneuver.  So in this case, the bottom of the square is formed by a half line that starts at center and finished by the line on the last leg.   This is an interesting question as I’ve never considered Derek’s interpretation.  It just never occurred to me and I don’t even try to fly it like that.  I have always thought of say the Masters double immelmann, triangle, or any square as starting at center.  The question then becomes where is the exit.  The last line is just a retrace of a prior line and the maneuver finishes with a straight line after the point where the first radii of the maneuver was started.  On the double immelmann I try to roll wings level at the point where I started the first half loop.  All lines contribute to the shape of the maneuver. Of course, there are many maneuvers that do start before center. Don From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:03 AM
To: Anthony Romano; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start? Since the last maneuver is a centered square, the first line of the square is the bottom and thus starts before center. As Anthony mentions all maneuvers start and end with a straight line so one must assume that a straight horizontal line of reasonable length must be visible before that straight line is flown before center.  I would think that the judge would make a determination about the start line once the first vertical portion is started and then they could determine if the straight line in was proportional to the maneuver.  So, if the first vertical line starts at 50 yards past center then there should have been at least 50+ yards of straight horizontal flight prior to center in order for the maneuver to look like a square and be proportional. Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Without digging through the rule book for chapter and verse all maneuvers begin and end with a straight line. So the beginning would be a straight line of significant length prior to be obviously clear that it is a straight line. If the pilot locks the plane in wings level dead horizontal flight it could be a few seconds or what ever that translates to in distance that could be enough such as after the trombone and before the golf ball in masters. For a long drive across the box again I look for a defined straight line prior to beginning the maneuver. Certainly for those examples that begin past center than center is appropriate point. For the last 2 maneuvers in P one would have to fly a very large half Cuban to encroach on center. This would be a poor presentation if the maneuver are not distinct.Similar discussions could be had for the length of a hesitation in a roll or height of a stall turn. These should be explicitly long enough to be clear of what is intended.The pilots job is to convince the judges that the maneuvers have been flown correctly. If there is doubt in the judges mind then they should downgrade because the pilot has not completed this task. Anthony From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 10:45 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?  This question was brought up at a local contest without a sure answer.  
This was specifically referring to the last 2 maneuvers in FAI P-19 but 
might apply to other situations as well.  The last 2 maneuvers are a 
half Cuban with 2 of 4 on the 45 followed by a square with half rolls.

So when does the square start?  Is it at center?  or at the first pull 
up?  It clearly has to finish after center after a straight segment 
following the half roll.  If the the half Cuban is flown large so that 
it finished after or at center box does that cause a downgrade on the 
square or do you start judging at the first pull up (no downgrade)?

You could potentially have a similar question in Masters with the start 
of the triangle after the half square on corner turnaround.

Thanks,

Stuart Chale

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