[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
George Kennie
geobet4evr at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 09:01:24 AKST 2019
Couldn't that become infectious ? I still have a comfortable practice
routine that is
a slightly modified 1999 Intermediate sequence that has an inserted Top Hat
where
the 2nd humpty used to be and incorporates most of the basic elements. I
can do
complex rolling maneuvers, but my stress level increases exponentially.
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:42 PM Wayne Galligan via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> A trend we have seen in D6 here lately.
>
> SPA is very active in the southeast and in the DFW area. Several of the
> SPA
> flyers have brought their SPA .60 airplanes to a few of our contests on my
> suggestion. They preform very well in the lower classes. Since they have
> a
> good knowledge of the maneuvers and judging it was an easy transition.
> This
> has also spawned their interest in acquiring regular size AMA pattern
> planes
> and participating in more of the AMA events. Several of the members of the
> Ft Worth Thunderbirds have even gone as far as hosting a new contest date
> April 6-7. Something the DFW area has been lacking for a few years. There
> will be 21 AMA and SPA contests scheduled in the 2019 season in the D6
> area.
>
> I have been active in the the SPA events in my area for several reasons.
> 1. relatively inexpensive planes
> 2. mostly one day events, several two day events
> 3. 5-6 events all within 1-2 hours of driving
>
> Also the SPA group sat down last month and worked out the 2019 schedule so
> as it wouldn’t conflict with the AMA events as much as possible.
> Todd Blose is even back in the hunt sponsoring an SPA event at his field
> this year.
>
> So get your local guys to dust off their 70's style pattern planes and
> have
> them join the fun.
>
> Get your fix in D6.
>
> Wayne Galligan
> member
> AMA 679374
> NSRCA 4690
> SPA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:07 AM
> To: 'Bob Kane' ; 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
>
> Don't you just hate it when someone says out loud the thoughts that are in
> your head that you're afraid to throw out on the table. I fear that Mr.
> Kane may be right in the long run, sadly. I'm afraid that this rule
> change
> may actually have a negative impact in that it may chase out those already
> flying 2M planes in Intermediate who are not ready, and may never be ready
> to jump to Advanced.
> Curt Oberg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02 AM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
>
> Call me a naysayer, but I don't think there is a dam thing we can do to
> stop
> the decline. We might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO. It is
> impacting every facet of the hobby. Brick and mortar hobby shops are all
> but gone, those that are still surviving are not doing so on airplane
> sales.
> Companies are going under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to
> aging membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc. There is not
> enough new blood getting into the sport. All this at a time when it has
> never been easier or cheaper to put a competitive airplane in the air. The
> signs are all there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending
> doom
> of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?
>
> I am going to enjoy it while I can. Back to the cave.
>
> Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
> To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>, "'General pattern discussion'"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55 AM
>
> #yiv2223723423
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> #yiv2223723423 I have read the discussions here
> with considerable interest. The decline in pattern has
> been steady and substantial. There are a number of
> indicators for this. I have submitted a rule proposal to
> encourage participation in this event. I would strongly
> encourage you all to contact your contest board member to
> pass this rule change proposal. you can type AMA rules
> change proposals and read for yourselves. I recommend you
> do that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have
> talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete
> if it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal
> on that. everything I have read here supports the spirit
> and intent of the proposal. It would be a very healthy
> rules change for the event. Mike From: NSRCA-discussion
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
> Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
> PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
> for a pattern plane... Bill- Have at it. If it helps
> promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt- lucky man, even with
> those tree landings 😉Hank- my first pattern
> contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox
> .40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do
> with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2
> ‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a
> Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light scheme
> too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack
> of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started
> to focus on my flying and practice did I see better results.
> True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern
> plane, but even that design was a ‘73 design, a year
> before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the
> 1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings
> cause he did that better than I did. My first TOC in 1994, I flew
> what was considered a small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin.
> I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups
> in the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I
> was out flying my planes.I flew with a 5UAP Futaba
> radio with no expo or mixes for years before getting my
> first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels
> for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no
> mixes... just atv/end-points and trims. Here locally we’ve had many
> non-pattern planes competing over the years. Extra .40, foam
> Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small
> Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick
> .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the
> moment. A lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in
> their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when it was
> all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case,
> but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to
> keep things fair and fun. Two things I had trouble with
> coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a
> flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10
> scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see
> the scores from me and compare them to another judge. I’m
> not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and
> consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies
> what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet),
> or a 10 to RVP (have done it before and will miss the
> opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of flying any
> end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot
> is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the
> hardest part), then there is no frustration in the scores
> given, just in the mistakes made. That’s where being on
> your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until I moved
> to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice.
> As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we
> judged each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely
> would/could be made. Generally we found that we scored each
> other harder than others just cause of that knowledge. I
> think that also made us better pilots, especially in those
> rounds lol.
> Sorry for
> the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to
> go glue my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it
> to my landing gear former for the first 3 flights was ok for
> testing, but it’s time to practice on Thursday with our
> newest Jr member Kal.
> JasonJas iP
> On Dec 31,
> 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:Hi
> Yep, I
> agree. Back in the late 70's I flew "A"
> pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre
> 60. Even took 3rd once, I could take off and land really
> well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less
> than 3 pieces.
> I have been
> lurking on this list and have been a member for several
> years, hoping for the time when I could get into pattern.
> Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call
> Elitists belittling others who don't have, want, or
> cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers
> have.
> I thank all of
> you who took the time to respond. My comment is really
> that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest
> again we need a way to get the average flyer, that has any
> interest in competition, to start. Once they have
> participated in a few contests and met the other guys I
> believe it could take off. In my area there are no pattern
> flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers. I believe
> there are a few in the SAM's club and there are none I
> am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado Hills (I am
> a member). This covers well over a thousand
> flyers.
> But
> thanks again for the good conversation. A lot more
> interesting than flying down wind😒
> HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
> PM
> To: John Ford; General pattern
> discussion
> Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
> Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John.
> The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of
> pattern flying.
> I have seen almost no
> "elitists" in pattern. In fact, I can not think
> of even one, right now, thinking back... Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific
> Leader Member
> SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC
> Emeritus
> Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865)
> 604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10
> PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote: Hank,
> You make some
> good points, but I have to jump in on this
> one. In
> the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively"
> at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the
> previous 20 years to that, maybe half as many
> venues. Over that 30-year period,
> contrary to being laughed off the field, I've observed
> many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport
> plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear
> and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery (with
> donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to
> allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've even
> seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's
> plane, offer one of his spare planes for the newcomer to
> fly.
> Yes, we
> have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who
> looked down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at
> the entire Sportsman and Intermediate classes...but I've
> never personally come across a generally-present
> "Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the
> sport for others, regardless of experience level or plane
> choice. In fact, the folks who tend to be
> financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest and
> greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time
> and help for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always
> a few exceptions, but it not the general rule...that I have
> personally seen. There is always someone on
> email lists such as this one (and others) that will play
> armchair expert and start describing what plane is required
> for this class and that class. It's not good
> information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been
> about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to
> practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you
> examine the NSRCA contest results and look for those same
> armchair experts, you'll usually find that they
> haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions
> exist, but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn
> 10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric, or with a
> smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several
> times. So has everyone else who goes to
> contests.
> As long
> as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good
> enough..just practice! You are in the hunt! JohnNSRCA 1673 On
> Mon,
> Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
> PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote: Hi
> Guys
> Thanks for
> addressing this issue. If we are truly down to 400
> members, and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new
> blood is pivotal.
> I'm at
> work so I can't write all I want but I would like to
> dial expectations down a little
> more.
> I wanted to
> get started in pattern a few years back. I bought an ARF
> pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS). I also
> bought a Swallow? for a 120 to 140. Life got in the way so
> I never finished them. I gave the smaller one to my son
> and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the
> airplane sits in my shop.
> If I am lucky
> I will convert both to electric and get started. (I've
> been flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly
> just for sport and socializing).
> Today you can
> get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap
> so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for
> anyone that thinks they may be interested in
> pattern.
> Why can't
> a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and
> enter a couple of contests? If they like it they will
> invariably move up to what the Elitists call competitive
> equipment. My concern is that if someone showed up at a
> contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed
> off the field.
> When I started
> playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs.
> I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy
> box. When I got better I built my own clubs via
> Golfsmith. Now I have a nice set of Pings. Still play
> badly but look good getting out of the car 😉
> Do any of you
> think I am on a useful track?
> Hank From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent:
> Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
> To: Curt
> Oberg; General pattern discussion
> Subject:
> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..
> Good perspective, an even
> better goal, and an excellent wife!! You’ve got it made
> Curt!!
> (See you in Andersonville!)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13
> PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > When I
> started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting
> from scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very
> competitive rig for about $750. One hundred for a plane kit,
> $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6
> radio including battery and servos, and about $150 for
> retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing
> materials, etc. Of course you then had to build the plane
> first (which is probably becoming a lost art). Relatively
> speaking, considering inflation and the differential between
> salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF
> pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in
> a percentage of your disposable income. It helps immensely
> when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy the
> best equipment out there for my planes. Every time I
> hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me
> that if I don't spend the money, my son will when
> I'm gone. My cost for enjoying pattern flying would go
> down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the
> trees.
> >
> > Curt
> Oberg
> >
> >
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
> On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM
>
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for
> a pattern plane...
> >
> > There’s always been talk about how
> expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are
> expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much
> they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line
> $$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for
> my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best
> planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good
> as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was
> about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more
> average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me
> to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the best
> equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at
> every turn.
> >
> >
> Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville,
> AR:
> > Plane: AJ Acuity $949
> > Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
> > OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
> > Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220
> > Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s
> & 175 $950 now 🤭
> > Receiver:
> Futaba 7006 $100 now
> > Falcon Spinner
> and Prop: $160
> > Total works out to
> about: $2939
> >
> >
> Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel
> assembly, sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed
> the cowl screws, motor mounting screws (shorter) and velcro
> strap for the battery.
> >
> > I could have used, and not hurt my
> performance any, this equipment:
> >
> Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520
>
> > Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved
> -$6
> > Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved
> -$155
> > Gator spinner ($18) and saved
> -$42
> > APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
> > Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved
> $34
> > Shulman Aviation 6v regulator
> ($20) +$20
> > Total saved: $658
> >
> > So my Acuity set-up
> could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you
> have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane.
> >
> > Now my Epic set-up
> from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point:
>
> > CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I
> think Epic + was less)
> > Brenner Contra:
> $1000 last year
> > Kontronic Motor: $500
>
> > Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
> > Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner
> > Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower
> batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity.
>
> >
> > I usually use
> 2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU
> links, MPI 2.25 wheels.
> >
> > Total around $6000
> >
>
> > Again, using equipment that’s not
> ‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the
> difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the contra
> for a Himax set-up.
> >
> > And the Yang/Oxai you can add another
> $~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up.
> >
> > All this being said,
> the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are:
> > Any sport/pattern capable plane they are
> comfortable flying.
> > Any second hand
> pattern plane they can afford.
> > A good
> friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁
> >
> > Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and
> always land wheels down 😉
> >
> > Jason
> > Jas iP
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
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>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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