<div dir="ltr"><div>Couldn't that become infectious ? I still have a comfortable practice routine that is </div><div>a slightly modified 1999 Intermediate sequence that has an inserted Top Hat where</div><div>the 2nd humpty used to be and incorporates most of the basic elements. I can do </div><div>complex rolling maneuvers, but my stress level increases exponentially.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:42 PM Wayne Galligan via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">A trend we have seen in D6 here lately.<br>
<br>
SPA is very active in the southeast and in the DFW area. Several of the SPA <br>
flyers have brought their SPA .60 airplanes to a few of our contests on my <br>
suggestion. They preform very well in the lower classes. Since they have a <br>
good knowledge of the maneuvers and judging it was an easy transition. This <br>
has also spawned their interest in acquiring regular size AMA pattern planes <br>
and participating in more of the AMA events. Several of the members of the <br>
Ft Worth Thunderbirds have even gone as far as hosting a new contest date <br>
April 6-7. Something the DFW area has been lacking for a few years. There <br>
will be 21 AMA and SPA contests scheduled in the 2019 season in the D6 area.<br>
<br>
I have been active in the the SPA events in my area for several reasons.<br>
1. relatively inexpensive planes<br>
2. mostly one day events, several two day events<br>
3. 5-6 events all within 1-2 hours of driving<br>
<br>
Also the SPA group sat down last month and worked out the 2019 schedule so <br>
as it wouldn’t conflict with the AMA events as much as possible.<br>
Todd Blose is even back in the hunt sponsoring an SPA event at his field <br>
this year.<br>
<br>
So get your local guys to dust off their 70's style pattern planes and have <br>
them join the fun.<br>
<br>
Get your fix in D6.<br>
<br>
Wayne Galligan<br>
member<br>
AMA 679374<br>
NSRCA 4690<br>
SPA<br>
<br>
-----Original Message----- <br>
From: Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:07 AM<br>
To: 'Bob Kane' ; 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...<br>
<br>
Don't you just hate it when someone says out loud the thoughts that are in <br>
your head that you're afraid to throw out on the table. I fear that Mr. <br>
Kane may be right in the long run, sadly. I'm afraid that this rule change <br>
may actually have a negative impact in that it may chase out those already <br>
flying 2M planes in Intermediate who are not ready, and may never be ready <br>
to jump to Advanced.<br>
Curt Oberg<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On <br>
Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02 AM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...<br>
<br>
Call me a naysayer, but I don't think there is a dam thing we can do to stop <br>
the decline. We might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO. It is <br>
impacting every facet of the hobby. Brick and mortar hobby shops are all <br>
but gone, those that are still surviving are not doing so on airplane sales. <br>
Companies are going under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to <br>
aging membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc. There is not <br>
enough new blood getting into the sport. All this at a time when it has <br>
never been easier or cheaper to put a competitive airplane in the air. The <br>
signs are all there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending doom <br>
of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?<br>
<br>
I am going to enjoy it while I can. Back to the cave.<br>
<br>
Bob Kane <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" target="_blank">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------<br>
On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <br>
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...<br>
To: "'Jas S'" <<a href="mailto:justanotherflyr@gmail.com" target="_blank">justanotherflyr@gmail.com</a>>, "'General pattern discussion'" <br>
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55 AM<br>
<br>
#yiv2223723423<br>
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#yiv2223723423 I have read the discussions here<br>
with considerable interest. The decline in pattern has<br>
been steady and substantial. There are a number of<br>
indicators for this. I have submitted a rule proposal to<br>
encourage participation in this event. I would strongly<br>
encourage you all to contact your contest board member to<br>
pass this rule change proposal. you can type AMA rules<br>
change proposals and read for yourselves. I recommend you<br>
do that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have<br>
talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete<br>
if it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal<br>
on that. everything I have read here supports the spirit<br>
and intent of the proposal. It would be a very healthy<br>
rules change for the event. Mike From: NSRCA-discussion<br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On<br>
Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion<br>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12<br>
PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price<br>
for a pattern plane... Bill- Have at it. If it helps<br>
promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt- lucky man, even with<br>
those tree landings 😉Hank- my first pattern<br>
contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox<br>
.40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do<br>
with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2<br>
‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a<br>
Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light scheme<br>
too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack<br>
of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started<br>
to focus on my flying and practice did I see better results.<br>
True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern<br>
plane, but even that design was a ‘73 design, a year<br>
before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the<br>
1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings<br>
cause he did that better than I did. My first TOC in 1994, I flew<br>
what was considered a small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin.<br>
I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups<br>
in the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I<br>
was out flying my planes.I flew with a 5UAP Futaba<br>
radio with no expo or mixes for years before getting my<br>
first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels<br>
for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no<br>
mixes... just atv/end-points and trims. Here locally we’ve had many<br>
non-pattern planes competing over the years. Extra .40, foam<br>
Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small<br>
Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick<br>
.40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the<br>
moment. A lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in<br>
their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when it was<br>
all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case,<br>
but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to<br>
keep things fair and fun. Two things I had trouble with<br>
coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a<br>
flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10<br>
scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see<br>
the scores from me and compare them to another judge. I’m<br>
not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and<br>
consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies<br>
what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet),<br>
or a 10 to RVP (have done it before and will miss the<br>
opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of flying any<br>
end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot<br>
is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the<br>
hardest part), then there is no frustration in the scores<br>
given, just in the mistakes made. That’s where being on<br>
your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until I moved<br>
to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice.<br>
As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we<br>
judged each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely<br>
would/could be made. Generally we found that we scored each<br>
other harder than others just cause of that knowledge. I<br>
think that also made us better pilots, especially in those<br>
rounds lol.<br>
Sorry for<br>
the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to<br>
go glue my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it<br>
to my landing gear former for the first 3 flights was ok for<br>
testing, but it’s time to practice on Thursday with our<br>
newest Jr member Kal.<br>
JasonJas iP<br>
On Dec 31,<br>
2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion <br>
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
wrote:Hi<br>
Yep, I<br>
agree. Back in the late 70's I flew "A"<br>
pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre<br>
60. Even took 3rd once, I could take off and land really<br>
well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less<br>
than 3 pieces.<br>
I have been<br>
lurking on this list and have been a member for several<br>
years, hoping for the time when I could get into pattern.<br>
Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call<br>
Elitists belittling others who don't have, want, or<br>
cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers<br>
have.<br>
I thank all of<br>
you who took the time to respond. My comment is really<br>
that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest<br>
again we need a way to get the average flyer, that has any<br>
interest in competition, to start. Once they have<br>
participated in a few contests and met the other guys I<br>
believe it could take off. In my area there are no pattern<br>
flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers. I believe<br>
there are a few in the SAM's club and there are none I<br>
am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado Hills (I am<br>
a member). This covers well over a thousand<br>
flyers.<br>
But<br>
thanks again for the good conversation. A lot more<br>
interesting than flying down wind😒<br>
HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <br>
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53<br>
PM<br>
To: John Ford; General pattern<br>
discussion<br>
Subject: Re:<br>
[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...<br>
Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John.<br>
The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of<br>
pattern flying.<br>
I have seen almost no<br>
"elitists" in pattern. In fact, I can not think<br>
of even one, right now, thinking back... Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific<br>
Leader Member<br>
SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC<br>
Emeritus<br>
Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865)<br>
604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10<br>
PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
wrote: Hank,<br>
You make some<br>
good points, but I have to jump in on this<br>
one. In<br>
the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively"<br>
at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the<br>
previous 20 years to that, maybe half as many<br>
venues. Over that 30-year period,<br>
contrary to being laughed off the field, I've observed<br>
many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport<br>
plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear<br>
and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery (with<br>
donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to<br>
allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've even<br>
seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's<br>
plane, offer one of his spare planes for the newcomer to<br>
fly.<br>
Yes, we<br>
have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who<br>
looked down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at<br>
the entire Sportsman and Intermediate classes...but I've<br>
never personally come across a generally-present<br>
"Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the<br>
sport for others, regardless of experience level or plane<br>
choice. In fact, the folks who tend to be<br>
financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest and<br>
greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time<br>
and help for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always<br>
a few exceptions, but it not the general rule...that I have<br>
personally seen. There is always someone on<br>
email lists such as this one (and others) that will play<br>
armchair expert and start describing what plane is required<br>
for this class and that class. It's not good<br>
information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been<br>
about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to<br>
practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you<br>
examine the NSRCA contest results and look for those same<br>
armchair experts, you'll usually find that they<br>
haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions<br>
exist, but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn<br>
10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric, or with a<br>
smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several<br>
times. So has everyone else who goes to<br>
contests.<br>
As long<br>
as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good<br>
enough..just practice! You are in the hunt! JohnNSRCA 1673 On Mon, <br>
Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25<br>
PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
wrote: Hi<br>
Guys<br>
Thanks for<br>
addressing this issue. If we are truly down to 400<br>
members, and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new<br>
blood is pivotal.<br>
I'm at<br>
work so I can't write all I want but I would like to<br>
dial expectations down a little<br>
more.<br>
I wanted to<br>
get started in pattern a few years back. I bought an ARF<br>
pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS). I also<br>
bought a Swallow? for a 120 to 140. Life got in the way so<br>
I never finished them. I gave the smaller one to my son<br>
and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the<br>
airplane sits in my shop.<br>
If I am lucky<br>
I will convert both to electric and get started. (I've<br>
been flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly<br>
just for sport and socializing).<br>
Today you can<br>
get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap<br>
so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for<br>
anyone that thinks they may be interested in<br>
pattern.<br>
Why can't<br>
a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and<br>
enter a couple of contests? If they like it they will<br>
invariably move up to what the Elitists call competitive<br>
equipment. My concern is that if someone showed up at a<br>
contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed<br>
off the field.<br>
When I started<br>
playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs.<br>
I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy<br>
box. When I got better I built my own clubs via<br>
Golfsmith. Now I have a nice set of Pings. Still play<br>
badly but look good getting out of the car 😉<br>
Do any of you<br>
think I am on a useful track?<br>
Hank From: NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion <br>
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent:<br>
Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM<br>
To: Curt<br>
Oberg; General pattern discussion<br>
Subject:<br>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..<br>
Good perspective, an even<br>
better goal, and an excellent wife!! You’ve got it made<br>
Curt!!<br>
(See you in Andersonville!)<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<br>
<br>
> On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13<br>
PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> When I<br>
started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting<br>
from scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very<br>
competitive rig for about $750. One hundred for a plane kit,<br>
$100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6<br>
radio including battery and servos, and about $150 for<br>
retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing<br>
materials, etc. Of course you then had to build the plane<br>
first (which is probably becoming a lost art). Relatively<br>
speaking, considering inflation and the differential between<br>
salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF<br>
pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in<br>
a percentage of your disposable income. It helps immensely<br>
when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy the<br>
best equipment out there for my planes. Every time I<br>
hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me<br>
that if I don't spend the money, my son will when<br>
I'm gone. My cost for enjoying pattern flying would go<br>
down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the<br>
trees.<br>
><br>
> Curt<br>
Oberg<br>
><br>
><br>
-----Original Message----- <br>
> From:<br>
NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<br>
On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion<br>
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM<br>
<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<br>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for<br>
a pattern plane...<br>
><br>
> There’s always been talk about how<br>
expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are<br>
expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much<br>
they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line<br>
$$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for<br>
my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best<br>
planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good<br>
as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was<br>
about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more<br>
average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me<br>
to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the best<br>
equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at<br>
every turn.<br>
><br>
><br>
Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville,<br>
AR:<br>
> Plane: AJ Acuity $949<br>
> Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260<br>
> OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think<br>
> Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220<br>
> Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s<br>
& 175 $950 now 🤭<br>
> Receiver:<br>
Futaba 7006 $100 now<br>
> Falcon Spinner<br>
and Prop: $160<br>
> Total works out to<br>
about: $2939<br>
><br>
><br>
Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel<br>
assembly, sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed<br>
the cowl screws, motor mounting screws (shorter) and velcro<br>
strap for the battery.<br>
><br>
> I could have used, and not hurt my<br>
performance any, this equipment:<br>
><br>
Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520<br>
<br>
> Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved<br>
-$6<br>
> Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved<br>
-$155<br>
> Gator spinner ($18) and saved<br>
-$42<br>
> APC prop ($44) and saved -$56<br>
> Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved<br>
$34<br>
> Shulman Aviation 6v regulator<br>
($20) +$20<br>
> Total saved: $658<br>
><br>
> So my Acuity set-up<br>
could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you<br>
have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane.<br>
><br>
> Now my Epic set-up<br>
from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point:<br>
<br>
> CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I<br>
think Epic + was less)<br>
> Brenner Contra:<br>
$1000 last year<br>
> Kontronic Motor: $500<br>
<br>
> Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop<br>
> Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner<br>
> Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower<br>
batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity.<br>
<br>
><br>
> I usually use<br>
2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU<br>
links, MPI 2.25 wheels.<br>
><br>
> Total around $6000<br>
><br>
<br>
> Again, using equipment that’s not<br>
‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the<br>
difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the contra<br>
for a Himax set-up.<br>
><br>
> And the Yang/Oxai you can add another<br>
$~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up.<br>
><br>
> All this being said,<br>
the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are:<br>
> Any sport/pattern capable plane they are<br>
comfortable flying.<br>
> Any second hand<br>
pattern plane they can afford.<br>
> A good<br>
friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁<br>
><br>
> Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and<br>
always land wheels down 😉<br>
><br>
> Jason<br>
> Jas iP<br>
><br>
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