[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
wayg2013 at gmail.com
wayg2013 at gmail.com
Thu Jan 3 08:42:10 AKST 2019
A trend we have seen in D6 here lately.
SPA is very active in the southeast and in the DFW area. Several of the SPA
flyers have brought their SPA .60 airplanes to a few of our contests on my
suggestion. They preform very well in the lower classes. Since they have a
good knowledge of the maneuvers and judging it was an easy transition. This
has also spawned their interest in acquiring regular size AMA pattern planes
and participating in more of the AMA events. Several of the members of the
Ft Worth Thunderbirds have even gone as far as hosting a new contest date
April 6-7. Something the DFW area has been lacking for a few years. There
will be 21 AMA and SPA contests scheduled in the 2019 season in the D6 area.
I have been active in the the SPA events in my area for several reasons.
1. relatively inexpensive planes
2. mostly one day events, several two day events
3. 5-6 events all within 1-2 hours of driving
Also the SPA group sat down last month and worked out the 2019 schedule so
as it wouldn’t conflict with the AMA events as much as possible.
Todd Blose is even back in the hunt sponsoring an SPA event at his field
this year.
So get your local guys to dust off their 70's style pattern planes and have
them join the fun.
Get your fix in D6.
Wayne Galligan
member
AMA 679374
NSRCA 4690
SPA
-----Original Message-----
From: Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:07 AM
To: 'Bob Kane' ; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
Don't you just hate it when someone says out loud the thoughts that are in
your head that you're afraid to throw out on the table. I fear that Mr.
Kane may be right in the long run, sadly. I'm afraid that this rule change
may actually have a negative impact in that it may chase out those already
flying 2M planes in Intermediate who are not ready, and may never be ready
to jump to Advanced.
Curt Oberg
-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
Call me a naysayer, but I don't think there is a dam thing we can do to stop
the decline. We might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO. It is
impacting every facet of the hobby. Brick and mortar hobby shops are all
but gone, those that are still surviving are not doing so on airplane sales.
Companies are going under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to
aging membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc. There is not
enough new blood getting into the sport. All this at a time when it has
never been easier or cheaper to put a competitive airplane in the air. The
signs are all there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending doom
of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?
I am going to enjoy it while I can. Back to the cave.
Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>, "'General pattern discussion'"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55 AM
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#yiv2223723423 I have read the discussions here
with considerable interest. The decline in pattern has
been steady and substantial. There are a number of
indicators for this. I have submitted a rule proposal to
encourage participation in this event. I would strongly
encourage you all to contact your contest board member to
pass this rule change proposal. you can type AMA rules
change proposals and read for yourselves. I recommend you
do that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have
talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete
if it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal
on that. everything I have read here supports the spirit
and intent of the proposal. It would be a very healthy
rules change for the event. Mike From: NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
PM
To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
for a pattern plane... Bill- Have at it. If it helps
promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt- lucky man, even with
those tree landings 😉Hank- my first pattern
contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox
.40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do
with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2
‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a
Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light scheme
too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack
of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started
to focus on my flying and practice did I see better results.
True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern
plane, but even that design was a ‘73 design, a year
before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the
1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings
cause he did that better than I did. My first TOC in 1994, I flew
what was considered a small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin.
I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups
in the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I
was out flying my planes.I flew with a 5UAP Futaba
radio with no expo or mixes for years before getting my
first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels
for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no
mixes... just atv/end-points and trims. Here locally we’ve had many
non-pattern planes competing over the years. Extra .40, foam
Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small
Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick
.40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the
moment. A lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in
their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when it was
all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case,
but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to
keep things fair and fun. Two things I had trouble with
coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a
flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10
scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see
the scores from me and compare them to another judge. I’m
not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and
consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies
what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet),
or a 10 to RVP (have done it before and will miss the
opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of flying any
end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot
is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the
hardest part), then there is no frustration in the scores
given, just in the mistakes made. That’s where being on
your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until I moved
to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice.
As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we
judged each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely
would/could be made. Generally we found that we scored each
other harder than others just cause of that knowledge. I
think that also made us better pilots, especially in those
rounds lol.
Sorry for
the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to
go glue my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it
to my landing gear former for the first 3 flights was ok for
testing, but it’s time to practice on Thursday with our
newest Jr member Kal.
JasonJas iP
On Dec 31,
2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote:Hi
Yep, I
agree. Back in the late 70's I flew "A"
pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre
60. Even took 3rd once, I could take off and land really
well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less
than 3 pieces.
I have been
lurking on this list and have been a member for several
years, hoping for the time when I could get into pattern.
Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call
Elitists belittling others who don't have, want, or
cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers
have.
I thank all of
you who took the time to respond. My comment is really
that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest
again we need a way to get the average flyer, that has any
interest in competition, to start. Once they have
participated in a few contests and met the other guys I
believe it could take off. In my area there are no pattern
flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers. I believe
there are a few in the SAM's club and there are none I
am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado Hills (I am
a member). This covers well over a thousand
flyers.
But
thanks again for the good conversation. A lot more
interesting than flying down wind😒
HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
PM
To: John Ford; General pattern
discussion
Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John.
The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of
pattern flying.
I have seen almost no
"elitists" in pattern. In fact, I can not think
of even one, right now, thinking back... Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific
Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC
Emeritus
Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865)
604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10
PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote: Hank,
You make some
good points, but I have to jump in on this
one. In
the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively"
at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the
previous 20 years to that, maybe half as many
venues. Over that 30-year period,
contrary to being laughed off the field, I've observed
many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport
plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear
and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery (with
donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to
allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've even
seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's
plane, offer one of his spare planes for the newcomer to
fly.
Yes, we
have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who
looked down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at
the entire Sportsman and Intermediate classes...but I've
never personally come across a generally-present
"Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the
sport for others, regardless of experience level or plane
choice. In fact, the folks who tend to be
financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest and
greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time
and help for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always
a few exceptions, but it not the general rule...that I have
personally seen. There is always someone on
email lists such as this one (and others) that will play
armchair expert and start describing what plane is required
for this class and that class. It's not good
information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been
about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to
practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you
examine the NSRCA contest results and look for those same
armchair experts, you'll usually find that they
haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions
exist, but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn
10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric, or with a
smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several
times. So has everyone else who goes to
contests.
As long
as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good
enough..just practice! You are in the hunt! JohnNSRCA 1673 On Mon,
Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote: Hi
Guys
Thanks for
addressing this issue. If we are truly down to 400
members, and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new
blood is pivotal.
I'm at
work so I can't write all I want but I would like to
dial expectations down a little
more.
I wanted to
get started in pattern a few years back. I bought an ARF
pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS). I also
bought a Swallow? for a 120 to 140. Life got in the way so
I never finished them. I gave the smaller one to my son
and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the
airplane sits in my shop.
If I am lucky
I will convert both to electric and get started. (I've
been flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly
just for sport and socializing).
Today you can
get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap
so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for
anyone that thinks they may be interested in
pattern.
Why can't
a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and
enter a couple of contests? If they like it they will
invariably move up to what the Elitists call competitive
equipment. My concern is that if someone showed up at a
contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed
off the field.
When I started
playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs.
I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy
box. When I got better I built my own clubs via
Golfsmith. Now I have a nice set of Pings. Still play
badly but look good getting out of the car 😉
Do any of you
think I am on a useful track?
Hank From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent:
Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: Curt
Oberg; General pattern discussion
Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..
Good perspective, an even
better goal, and an excellent wife!! You’ve got it made
Curt!!
(See you in Andersonville!)
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13
PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote:
>
> When I
started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting
from scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very
competitive rig for about $750. One hundred for a plane kit,
$100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6
radio including battery and servos, and about $150 for
retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing
materials, etc. Of course you then had to build the plane
first (which is probably becoming a lost art). Relatively
speaking, considering inflation and the differential between
salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF
pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in
a percentage of your disposable income. It helps immensely
when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy the
best equipment out there for my planes. Every time I
hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me
that if I don't spend the money, my son will when
I'm gone. My cost for enjoying pattern flying would go
down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the
trees.
>
> Curt
Oberg
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for
a pattern plane...
>
> There’s always been talk about how
expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are
expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much
they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line
$$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for
my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best
planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good
as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was
about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more
average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me
to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the best
equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at
every turn.
>
>
Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville,
AR:
> Plane: AJ Acuity $949
> Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
> OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
> Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220
> Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s
& 175 $950 now 🤭
> Receiver:
Futaba 7006 $100 now
> Falcon Spinner
and Prop: $160
> Total works out to
about: $2939
>
>
Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel
assembly, sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed
the cowl screws, motor mounting screws (shorter) and velcro
strap for the battery.
>
> I could have used, and not hurt my
performance any, this equipment:
>
Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520
> Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved
-$6
> Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved
-$155
> Gator spinner ($18) and saved
-$42
> APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
> Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved
$34
> Shulman Aviation 6v regulator
($20) +$20
> Total saved: $658
>
> So my Acuity set-up
could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you
have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane.
>
> Now my Epic set-up
from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point:
> CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I
think Epic + was less)
> Brenner Contra:
$1000 last year
> Kontronic Motor: $500
> Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
> Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner
> Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower
batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity.
>
> I usually use
2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU
links, MPI 2.25 wheels.
>
> Total around $6000
>
> Again, using equipment that’s not
‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the
difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the contra
for a Himax set-up.
>
> And the Yang/Oxai you can add another
$~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up.
>
> All this being said,
the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are:
> Any sport/pattern capable plane they are
comfortable flying.
> Any second hand
pattern plane they can afford.
> A good
friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁
>
> Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and
always land wheels down 😉
>
> Jason
> Jas iP
>
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>
>
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