[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Thu Jan 3 08:08:06 AKST 2019

Don't you just hate it when someone says out loud the thoughts that are in your head that you're afraid to throw out on the table.  I fear that Mr. Kane may be right in the long run, sadly.  I'm afraid that this rule change may actually have a negative impact in that it may chase out those already flying 2M planes in Intermediate who are not ready, and may never be ready to jump to Advanced. 
Curt Oberg

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Call me a naysayer, but I don't think there is a dam thing we can do to stop the decline.  We might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO.  It is impacting every facet of the hobby.   Brick and mortar hobby shops are all but gone, those that are still surviving are not doing so on airplane sales. Companies are going under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to aging membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc.  There is not enough new blood getting into the sport.  All this at a time when it has never been easier or cheaper to put a competitive airplane in the air. The signs are all there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending doom of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'? 

I am going to enjoy it while I can. Back to the cave.

Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
 To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>, "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55 AM

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 #yiv2223723423 I have read the discussions here
 with considerable interest.  The decline in pattern has
 been steady and substantial.  There are a number of
 indicators for this.  I have submitted a rule proposal to
 encourage participation in this event.  I would strongly
 encourage you all to contact your contest board member to
 pass this rule change proposal.  you can type AMA rules
 change proposals and read for yourselves.  I recommend you
 do that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have
 talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete
 if it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal
 on that.  everything I have read here supports the spirit
 and intent of the proposal.  It would be a very healthy
 rules change for the event.  Mike   From: NSRCA-discussion
 [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
 Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
 Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
 PM
 To: General pattern discussion
 <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
 for a pattern plane...  Bill- Have at it. If it helps
 promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt- lucky man, even with
 those tree landings 😉Hank- my first pattern
 contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox
 .40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do
 with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2
 ‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a
 Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light scheme
 too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack
 of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started
 to focus on my flying and practice did I see better results.
 True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern
 plane, but even that design was a ‘73 design, a year
 before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the
 1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings
 cause he did that better than I did. My first TOC in 1994, I flew
 what was considered a small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin.
 I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups
 in the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I
 was out flying my planes.I flew with a 5UAP Futaba
 radio with no expo or mixes for years before getting my
 first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels
 for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no
 mixes... just atv/end-points and trims. Here locally we’ve had many
 non-pattern planes competing over the years. Extra .40, foam
 Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small
 Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick
 .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the
 moment. A lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in
 their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when it was
 all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case,
 but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to
 keep things fair and fun.   Two things I had trouble with
 coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a
 flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10
 scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see
 the scores from me and compare them to another judge. I’m
 not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and
 consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies
 what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet),
 or a 10 to RVP (have done it before and will miss the
 opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of flying any
 end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot
 is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the
 hardest part), then there is no frustration in the scores
 given, just in the mistakes made. That’s where being on
 your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until I moved
 to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice.
 As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we
 judged each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely
 would/could be made. Generally we found that we scored each
 other harder than others just cause of that knowledge. I
 think that also made us better pilots, especially in those
 rounds lol.
  Sorry for
 the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to
 go glue my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it
 to my landing gear former for the first 3 flights was ok for
 testing, but it’s time to practice on Thursday with our
 newest Jr member Kal.
 JasonJas iP
 On Dec 31,
 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote:Hi
  Yep, I
 agree.  Back in the late 70's I flew "A"
 pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre
 60.  Even took 3rd once, I could take off and land really
 well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less
 than 3 pieces.
  I have been
 lurking on this list and have been a member for several
 years, hoping for the time when I could get into pattern. 
 Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call
 Elitists belittling others who don't have, want, or
 cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers
 have.  
  I thank all of
 you who took the time to respond.  My comment is really
 that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest
 again we need a way to get the average flyer, that has any
 interest in competition, to start.  Once they have
 participated in a few contests and met the other guys I
 believe it could take off.  In my area there are no pattern
 flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers.  I believe
 there are a few in the SAM's club and there are none I
 am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado Hills (I am
 a member).  This covers well over a thousand
 flyers.
  But
 thanks again for the good conversation.  A lot more
 interesting than flying down wind😒
  HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
 on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
 PM
 To: John Ford; General pattern
 discussion
 Subject: Re:
 [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
  Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John. 
 The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of
 pattern flying.
  I have seen almost no
 "elitists" in pattern.  In fact, I can not think
 of even one, right now, thinking back...  Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific
 Leader Member
 SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC
 Emeritus
 Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865)
 604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10
 PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote: Hank, 
 You make some
 good points, but I have to jump in on this
 one. In
 the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively"
 at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the
 previous 20 years to that, maybe half as many
 venues. Over that 30-year period,
 contrary to being laughed off the field, I've observed
 many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport
 plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear
 and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery (with
 donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to
 allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've even
 seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's
 plane, offer one of his spare planes for the newcomer to
 fly. 
  Yes, we
 have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who
 looked down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at
 the entire Sportsman and Intermediate classes...but I've
 never personally come across a generally-present
 "Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the
 sport for others, regardless of experience level or plane
 choice. In fact, the folks who tend to be
 financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest and
 greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time
 and help for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always
 a few exceptions, but it not the general rule...that I have
 personally seen.   There is always someone on
 email lists such as this one (and others) that will play
 armchair expert and start describing what plane is required
 for this class and that class. It's not good
 information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been
 about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to
 practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you
 examine the NSRCA contest results and look for those same
 armchair experts, you'll usually find that they
 haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions
 exist, but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn
 10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric, or with a
 smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several
 times. So has everyone else who goes to
 contests. 
  As long
 as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good
 enough..just practice! You are in the hunt!  JohnNSRCA 1673          On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
 PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote: Hi
 Guys
  Thanks for
 addressing this issue.  If we are truly down to 400
 members, and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new
 blood is pivotal.
  I'm at
 work so I can't write all I want but I would like to
 dial expectations down a little
 more.
  I wanted to
 get started in pattern a few years back.  I bought an ARF
 pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS).  I also
 bought a Swallow? for a 120 to 140.  Life got in the way so
 I never finished them.  I gave the smaller one to my son
 and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the
 airplane sits in my shop.
  If I am lucky
 I will convert both to electric and get started.  (I've
 been flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly
 just for sport and socializing).  
  Today you can
 get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap
 so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for
 anyone that thinks they may be interested in
 pattern.
  Why can't
 a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and
 enter a couple of contests?  If they like it they will
 invariably move up to what the Elitists call competitive
 equipment.  My concern is that if someone showed up at a
 contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed
 off the field.
  When I started
 playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs. 
 I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy
 box.  When I got better I built my own clubs via
 Golfsmith.  Now I have a nice set of Pings.  Still play
 badly but look good getting out of the car 😉
  Do any of you
 think I am on a useful track?
  Hank From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
 on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Sent:
 Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
 To: Curt
 Oberg; General pattern discussion
 Subject:
 Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..
  Good perspective, an even
 better goal, and an excellent wife!!  You’ve got it made
 Curt!! 
 (See you in Andersonville!) 

 Sent from my iPhone 

 > On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13
 PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote: 
 > 
 > When I
 started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting
 from scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very
 competitive rig for about $750. One hundred for a plane kit,
 $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6
 radio including battery and servos, and about $150 for
 retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing
 materials, etc.  Of course you then had to build the plane
 first (which is probably becoming a lost art).  Relatively
 speaking, considering inflation and the differential between
 salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF
 pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in
 a percentage of your disposable income.  It helps immensely
 when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy the
 best equipment out there for my planes.  Every time I
 hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me
 that if I don't spend the money, my son will when
 I'm gone.  My cost for enjoying pattern flying would go
 down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the
 trees. 
 > 
 > Curt
 Oberg 
 > 
 >
 -----Original Message----- 
 > From:
 NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
 On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion 
 > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM

 > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for
 a pattern plane... 
 > 
 > There’s always been talk about how
 expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are
 expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much
 they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line
 $$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for
 my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best
 planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good
 as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was
 about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more
 average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me
 to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the best
 equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at
 every turn. 
 > 
 >
 Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville,
 AR: 
 > Plane: AJ Acuity $949 
 > Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260 
 > OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think 
 > Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220 
 > Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s
 & 175 $950 now 🤭 
 > Receiver:
 Futaba 7006 $100 now 
 > Falcon Spinner
 and Prop: $160 
 > Total works out to
 about: $2939 
 > 
 >
 Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel
 assembly, sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed
 the cowl screws, motor mounting screws (shorter) and velcro
 strap for the battery. 
 > 
 > I could have used, and not hurt my
 performance any, this equipment: 
 >
 Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520

 > Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved
 -$6 
 > Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved
 -$155 
 > Gator spinner ($18) and saved
 -$42 
 > APC prop ($44) and saved -$56 
 > Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved
 $34 
 > Shulman Aviation 6v regulator
 ($20) +$20 
 > Total saved: $658 
 > 
 > So my Acuity set-up
 could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you
 have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane. 
 > 
 > Now my Epic set-up
 from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point:

 > CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I
 think Epic + was less) 
 > Brenner Contra:
 $1000 last year 
 > Kontronic Motor: $500

 > Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop 
 > Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner 
 > Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower
 batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity.

 > 
 > I usually use
 2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU
 links, MPI 2.25 wheels. 
 > 
 > Total around $6000 
 >

 > Again, using equipment that’s not
 ‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the
 difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the contra
 for a Himax set-up. 
 > 
 > And the Yang/Oxai you can add another
 $~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up. 
 > 
 > All this being said,
 the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are: 
 > Any sport/pattern capable plane they are
 comfortable flying. 
 > Any second hand
 pattern plane they can afford. 
 > A good
 friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁 
 > 
 > Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and
 always land wheels down 😉 
 > 
 > Jason 
 > Jas iP 
 >
 _______________________________________________ 
 > NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
 > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 > 
 >
 _______________________________________________ 
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