[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence

Wed Jul 12 18:28:27 AKDT 2017

I already do this ....... 

Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 7/12/17, Bill Kutchell via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
 To: "Patternpilot One" <patternpilot1 at hotmail.com>, "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2017, 4:39 PM

 LOL

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Patternpilot One via
 NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote:

 Hey why don't we toss all the rules out and put all
 the pilots name in a hat and do a drawing for the winners..
 Then sit back and drink beer for a few days...lol....

 Sent from my
 Verizon 4G LTE smartphone

 -------- Original message --------

 From: Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

 Date: 7/12/17 12:11 PM (GMT-05:00) 

 To: NSRCA <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
 different sequence 

 Deleting landings from being judged entirely would
 require an AMA rule book change to at least paragraph 14.6
 as a minimum. Since the AMA rules cycle for 2018-2019 is
 beyond accepting new proposals, any change couldn't
 occur until the 2020-2021
  rulebook, if a rules change was proposed and accepted by
 the AMA Contest board. A sequence change alone can't do
 the intent of what Mike proposes.

 Jon

 On Jul 12, 2017 10:38
 AM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote:

 We did just that during one rules cycle a few
 years ago when I was flying intermediate or advanced. The
 score was a 0 or a 10 for takeoffs and landings. It was a
 disaster. Suddenly no one was paying any attention to their
 own takeoffs and landings,
  and we had several near misses in our district. Lower
 classes weren't improving their skills in those areas
 and it got dangerous. And I've seen some pretty scary
 FAI landings since they aren't judged.
 And unless we started doing what IMAC does with
 the next airplane taking off while the previous lands you
 don't save time. You can end up with 4 airplanes in the
 air at once; no thanks.
 Jon

 On Wednesday,
 July 12, 2017 Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
 <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote:

 To all,
 I really don’t mean to jump
 into this fray and cause more dissension but I want to share
 an issue that has come up in laying out the Nats format that
 has considerable impact on
  the time factor in getting through all the pilots for a
 round of flying. 

 That is the landing and scoring
 the landing.  I have become aware of how much time it
 takes to wait for the landing, judge the landing, retrieving
 the airplane, compiling the
  scores, doing the administration, then getting ready to do
 the next flight.  

 Landing is a K1 maneuver and
 typically the score varies 3 to 4 points from contestant to
 contestant. 

 This is a maneuver that the pilot
 probably has more factors beyond his control than any other
 that affects the outcome of the score for that maneuver-site
 and field conditions,
  wind shifts, thermal activity, etc.  
 If you do the computations of the
 score variations and then compute to normalized scores,
 typically, the overall impact of the landing score has no
 real bearing on the outcome.

 However, scoring the maneuver and
 so forth takes a disproportionate amount of time.  It
 can add 20-30% or more to flight and administrative time.
  In contest administration, it
  is a significant time delay particularly when there are a
 lot of entrants-California, Nats, etc.
 I recommend that the landing be
 deleted from the flight maneuvers.

 Mike

 From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
 On Behalf Of John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion

 Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 11:21 AM

 To: Frackowiak Tony <frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>;
 General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership /
 Masters different sequence

 Tony,

 I don't see that simply adding some complexity to a
 maneuver automatically bumps the Kfactor. The current
 Masters sequence has a 2of8, reversed full roll, 2of8
 reversed starting from inverted and it is a  K5. To me,
 the 4of8 reversed from inverted is
  a much easier maneuver as the single transition is upright
 rather than two reversals at knifeedge and the Kfactor
 should reflect that.

 i wouldn't have a problem with reducing the complexity
 of these disputed maneuvers so we can agree that they are
 K4s but it's not my sequence.  I didn't change
 any Ks except to make corrections according to the guide.

 John

 On 7/10/2017 9:42 AM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:

 You are still trying to sneak in too many K5's by
 calling them K4's. The Reversing 4 of 8's should
 stay a K5. Yes, the inverted 8 point is a K4, but you are
 reversing! Can't you get that now makes it a 5!

 The Pyramid Loop as Described is definitely a K5. The
 Guide's Pyramid loop with just 1/2 rolls on each leg and
 without the 135 down at the start is a K4. So this is a
 K5.

 The Six Sided Loop on corner with all of the 1/2 rolls
 should be a K5. In the Guide a standard Six Sided Loop with
 just a 2 of 4 on the top leg is a K4. How does this stay a
 K4?

 And as I have said, the KE with 1 1/4 rolls should be a
 K5. The Guides simple KE flight with just 1/4 rolls is a
 K4.

 You should quit trying to sneak in difficulty by using
 too low of K-Factors. It is possible to create an
 interesting pattern without the difficulty creep of fake
 K-Factors.

 Tony Frackowiak  

 On Jul 10, 2017, at 7:04 AM, John Gayer via
 NSRCA-discussion wrote:

 Stuart,

 I took the liberty of putting your sequence in a new
 spreadsheet.

 Some of the exit attitudes didn't work as described like
 maneuver 11 needs to be a full roll to exit inverted and it
 is a K2 according to the guide. Also the spin is a K3
 according to the guide.

 I have some other ideas but I thought starting with a clean
 layout might be a good idea. I support what you are trying
 to do here.

 John

 DESCRIPTION

 K

 Exit

 Notes

 1

 1

 2

 U

 Double Immelman with knife edge flight

 5

 upright

 inside 1/2 loop then outside 1/2 loop

 3

 TA

 1/2 Square loop on corner with 2of4 roll

 2

 upright

 4

 D

 Pyramid Loop with 2of4, full roll, 2of4

 5

 upright

 Push to 135 down……

 5

 TA

 1/2 Square loop with Snap

 3

 inverted

 6

 U

 Six-sided Loop on corner, 1/2 Rolls in leg 1,3 and 4,6

 5

 inverted

 7

 TA

 Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a
 full roll on the downline. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll
 down

 3

 inverted

 8

 D

 4of8-pt roll, 4of8 opposite

 5

 inverted

 I would consider this a K4, inverted 8-pt is K4

 9

 TA

 Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going  up and 1/2
 roll down

 3

 upright

 10

 U

 Outside Avalanche with 1/2 rolls

 4

 upright

 11

 TA

 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a full roll on the 45

 2

 inverted

 Not inverted here and its not a 3, added 1/2 roll

 12

 D

 Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out

 4

 upright

 rolls same direction

 13

 TA

 Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down

 2

 upright

 14

 U

 Figure Z with two rolls on 45

 4

 upright

 15

 TA

 2  turn  spin

 3

 inverted

 two turn spin is still a K3, not 2

 16

 D

 Reverse cuban eight with full rolls

 4

 inverted

 17

 TA

 Stall turn with 1/2 roll down

 2

 upright

 18

 U

 Loop with roll over top 180

 5

 upright

 19

 U

 Landing

 1

 upright

 61

 On 7/9/2017 7:02 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
 wrote: 

 Pyramid (triangle from the top base at the bottom) 
 From the top of the box as you approach center push 3/8 loop
 to an inverted 45 degree down line 2/4 on this leg to
 upright.  Push 3/8 to inverted horizontal flight, full
 roll on this line from inverted
  push back 3/8 loop back towards top center. 2/4 on this
 line to inverted again, push 3/8 loop back to upright
 flight

 You are not going to like my answer but as far as the K
 factor it is similar to the current P-17 triangle which has
 a 4 pt roll on the top leg and still just a K4
 Since you are going to want to make the pyramid large so
 the 1/2 square down can be big enough not to fear the snap
 the maneuver preceding the pyramid the half square on corner
 needs to be large so the asymmetrical  roll (one leg
 only) should be fairly easy
  to do.  Also going up hill so you have more time for
 the 2/4.
 6 sided loop K factor being a 5.  Can't disagree
 with you but I can also make the case for a K4.  There
 are no K5 six sided loops in the current guidelines. 
 Nothing to compare to say it is as hard or easier.  I
 think that since it just has 1/2 rolls in
  it is easier than the P-17 six sided FAI is flying
 now.  Theirs is a K4.
 I think I agree with what someone said about K factors
 needing an overhaul.  'Perhaps going to an IMAC
 type system to assign K factors is the right direction to
 go.   This will take a bit of work and can't
 happen before these sequences need to be done:) 
  But it is something to think about for the future. 
 As far as the number of spins I am good with 2 or 3 or
 1.5 or 2.5 with an added 1/2 roll.  You are happy at 3
 Jon recommends 2 which just confirms that not everyone will
 be happy with the path we chose. 

 I think right now there are 3 clear K5 maneuvers. 
 Is the pyramid, six sided and or 1 1/4 roll to knife edge a
 K5 maneuver.  You can make a case with support to go
 either way. 

 Let me try to get this to format better.  If anyone
 else has comments on this version or if you support the
 original Masters proposal from the NSRCA website please let
 us know. 

 Masters
 proposal

 Maneuver

 KF

 Notes:

 1

 Takeoff (U)

 1

 2

 Double Immelman with knife edge flight
 (U)

 5

 Pull to
 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll
 same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop,
 immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same
 direction to level upright exit

 <cjialcnhkpanepbl.png>

 3

 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in
 2nd leg (TA)

 2

 4

 Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4
 (D)

 4

 Push back
 to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full
 roll  from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt
 roll, push to level upright exit

 5

 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -)
 in vert down line, exit inverted (TA)

 3

 (inverted
 exit)

 6

 Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs
 1, 3, 4, 6, exit inverted (U)

 4

 Push at
 center no rolls on vertical legs.  (inverted
 exit)

 7

 Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll
 up and a full roll on the downline, exit inverted. 
 Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down, exit inverted
 (TA)

 3

 (inverted
 exit)

 8

 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted
 (D)

 5

 (inverted
 exit)

 9

 Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going 
 up and 1/2 roll down, exit upright (TA)

 3

 10

 Avalanche with 1/2 roll going in and
 out

 4

 1/2 roll
 to inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the top,
 complete the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit
 upright.

 11

 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a1/2
 roll roll on the 45 (TA)

 3

 exit
 inverted

 12

 Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out.
 (D)

 4

 13

 Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright
 (TA)

 2

 14

 Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls 
 (U)

 4

 15

 2 turn spin exit inverted (TA)

 2

 16

 Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from
 inverted(D)

 4

 17

 Stall turn with half roll  down
 (TA)

 2

 18

 Loop with integrated roll in top 180
 (U)*

 5

 19

 Landing (U)

 1

 Total K-factor

 61

 Goal is
 60 to 63

 Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box
 maneuvers

 Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind
 rolling

 maneuvers

 Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers

 Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls

 Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins

 Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max

 On 7/9/2017 5:30 PM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:

 Stuart, 

 Your description of the Pyramid loop still doesn't
 seem to make sense to me. Am I wrong?

 I like the Avalanche.

 I don't think you've incorporated some of the
 other changes and as such you still have too many, in my
 opinion, K5 maneuvers. The Six Sided loop as proposed should
 be a K5. I feel the 1 1/4 roll KE is a K5. As I mentioned
 earlier, you could change the Pyramid
  loop to all 1/2 rolls and make it a K4, it's in the
 Guide that way.

 My suggestion, #3 should be a 1/2 Square Loop w/1/2rolls
 both legs. #4 should be Pyramid Loop starting from inverted,
 1/2 rolls each leg, exit upright.

 I would personally keep the 3 turn spin. I wouldn't
 go less then 2 with the spin. But you might consider making
 the Reverse Cuban 8 a regular Cuban 8 just to give more
 distance between the spin and the 8. That won't affect
 the entry in to the Stall Turn.

 My suggested sequence. Maneuvers in Red are straight out of
 the Guide. I've given what I can find in the Guide as
 the closest example of a proposed new maneuver.

 #1. Take-off
 (K1)

 #2.  Double Immelmann with half roll
 first, full roll second, inverted entry, exit upright
 (K4)

 #3.  Half square loop on corner with 1/2
 rolls, exit inverted (K2)

 #4. Pyramid Loop, inverted entry, 1/2 rolls each leg,
 exit upright. (K4)

 Guide example -  Triangular loop (base at
 bottom) with half rolls in all legs, exit inverted
 (K4)

 #5. 1/2 Square Outside, 1 Snap down, exit inverted
 (K3)

 #6. Six Sided Loop on Corner, 1/2 rolls legs 1, 3, 4, 6,
 exit inverted (K5)

 Guide example -  Six sided loop with 2/4 pt
 roll on top, inverted entry (K4)

 #7. Humpty w/Options, exit inverted (K3)

 Guide example -  Humpty bump (push, push,
 push) half roll up, 2/2pt roll down, inverted entry
 (K3)

 #8. two 4 of 8 rolls reversed, exit inverted (K5)

 Guide example -  4/8 pt. roll, inverted entry
 (K4)

 #9. Stall Turn, 2 1/2 rolls reversed up, 1/2 roll down,
 exit upright (K3)

 Guide example -  Stall Turn, 2/4pt roll up,
 half roll down, inverted entry (K2)

 #10. Inverted Avalanche w/1/2 Roll in and out, exit
 upright (K4)

 Guide example -  Avalanche with 1-1/2 snap,
 inverted entry (from bottom) (K4)

 #11. Same as proposed,
 exit upright (K3)

 #12. Same as proposed, exit upright (K5)

 Guide example -  Knife edge flight
 (K4)

 #13. Same as proposed,
 exit upright (K2) Might create an option that
 doesn't change position. Suggest 1 roll up, 1/2 roll
 down.

 #14. Figure Z w/2 rolls on 45, exit upright (K4)

 Guide example -  Figure Z with 2/2pt roll up
 (K4)

 #15. Three Turn Spin, exit inverted (K2)

 Guide example -   Two turn spin
 (K2)

 #16. Cuban 8 w/full
 rolls, inverted entry and exit (K4)

 #17. Stall Turn w/1/2
 roll down, exit upright ( K2)

 #18. Loop w/Integrated
 1 Roll on Top 180, exit
 upright (K5)

 #19. Landing
 (K1)

 Total K - 62

 This meets the Guide with a max of 4 K5 maneuvers and is
 within the K limit of 60 to 63. It does have only 9 of the
 19 maneuvers currently in the Guide. Really 7 of 17 if you
 don't use the Take-off and Landing.

 Tony Frackowiak

 On Jul 9, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Stuart Chale via
 NSRCA-discussion wrote:

 Can certainly change it to 2 spins without changing
 anything 

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 9, 2017, at 10:30 AM, John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
 <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
 wrote:

 Totally agree with Jon’s
 thoughts on spins.

 From:
 NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
 On Behalf Of Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion

 Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:13 AM

 To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org;
 frackowiak at sbcglobal.net

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership /
 Masters different sequence

 Much better sequence overall. I believe it is more in
 line with the intent of the sequence guide. It certainly
 makes the transition from advanced more doable. It also
 appears to be less power hungry.
 One comment. I, and several others, are not fans of end
 box spins. In heavy crosswinds, like the last NATS, the
 plane drifts as allowed without penalty FOR THAT MANEUVER,
 even if it goes out of box. However, unless the proposal to
 correct this passes the
  contest board, the following maneuver gets penalized for
 cross box or out of box before the maneuver actually starts.
 So the pilot gets a penalty in one maneuver for allowable
 drift in another. There is no guarantee the proposal will
 pass.  In this sequence,
  a three turn spin allows even more drift than we have with
 2.5 in the current sequence.
 I would argue that the entry and exit of a spin are what
 really count in judging. Therefore, if end box spins are
 kept, reducing it to one turn or 1.5 with a 1/2 roll out
 reduces the drift component considerably. 3 turns is just
 too many for end box.
 I'd also suggest that the top hat have a straight
 ahead option if the pilot does not need to correct in and
 out. I often wish the current sequence had the option.
 Good effort!
 Jon

 On Sunday, July 9,
 2017 Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
  wrote:

 Lets look at this, we can replace the Double key (K 5)
 with an avalanche K3 to get the snap in a center maneuver or
 lets put the maneuver we originally had in advanced, and
 avalanche with ½ roll in and out (K4), and remove the snap
 from the next maneuver
  reverse cuban turnaround.  Also changed a stall turn
 to ½ rolls reversed going up.

 Sorry formatting problems showing up again.

 Masters
 proposal

 Maneuver

 KF

 Notes:

 1

 Takeoff
 (U)

 1

 2

 Double
 Immelman with knife edge flight (U)

 5

 Pull to
 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll
 same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop,
 immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same
 direction to level upright exit

 <CCDCC1C3B1DB44578155E81A66BA48EE.png>

 3

 1/2
 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg
 (TA)

 2

 4

 Pyramid
 loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)

 5

 Push back
 to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full
 roll  from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt
 roll, push to level upright exit

 5

 1/2
 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down
 line, exit inverted (TA)

 3

 (inverted
 exit)

 6

 Six sided
 loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
 inverted (U)

 4

 Push at
 center no rolls on vertical legs.  (inverted
 exit)

 7

 Humpty
 with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full roll
 on the downline, exit inverted.  Option 1/4 roll up 3/4
 roll down, exit inverted (TA)

 3

 (inverted
 exit)

 8

 4/8
 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)

 5

 (inverted
 exit)

 9

 Stall
 turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going up and 1/2 roll down,
 exit upright (TA)

 3

 10

 avalanche
 with 1/2 roll in and out (U)

 4

 1/2 roll
 to inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the top,
 complete the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit
 upright.

 11

 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a 1/2
 roll on the 45 (TA)

 3

 12

 Knife
 edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)

 4

 exit
 upright

 13

 Top Hat,
 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)

 2

 14

 Figure Z
 with 2 consecutive rolls  (U)

 4

 15

 3 turn
 spin exit inverted (TA)

 2

 16

 Reverse
 cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)

 4

 17

 Stall
 turn with half roll  down (TA)

 2

 18

 Loop with
 integrated roll in top 180 (U)*

 5

 19

 Landing
 (U)

 1

 Total
 K-factor

 62

 Goal is
 60 to 63

 Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box
 maneuvers

 Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind
 rolling

 maneuvers

 Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers

 Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls

 Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins

 Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max

 Sent from Mail
 for Windows 10

 From: Stuart
 Chale via NSRCA-discussion

 Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:24 AM

 To: Frackowiak
 Tony; 
 General pattern discussion

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership /
 Masters different sequence

 Tony thanks for looking at this with an open mind and
 critical eye.  To be honest I wasn’t going to
 initially post this but was convinced to by a group of D 1
 flyers at the contest yesterday.  If for no other
 reason than to show that the committee did consider
  a more “conventional” sequence in addition to the one
 that was sent out.
 And I did change a few things last night after spending
 the full day in the sun and I promise only 1 beer at dinner
 so I may have messed up a thing or 2.

 Can this be the basis of the recommended sequence? 
 As I understand the process the committee sends the
 proposals to the BOD.  They review and in this case
 have asked for membership feedback and then make their
 recommendations to the committee.  If the BOD
  decides that sequence 1 is too difficult and this one meets
 the goals of the NSRCA better then they can ask us to tweak
 this one instead.  Did I send this out at the request
 of the entire sequence committee?  No I did not.

 #4 From top of the box push 3/8 loop to a 45 2 of 4 push
 back to level inverted flight full roll across the bottom
 push back 3/8 loop to a 45 degree up line towards top center
 of the box 2 of 4 and push 3/8 loop back to horizontal
 (upright)
 Can easily make a case to be a K5 
 😊

 #6 correct ½ rolls only I will have to review current
 maneuvers for the K factor. Pretty late right now but I
 wanted to provide a response as best I could.

 #12 comes from P19 and that is the k factor they gave it
 so that is what we were using right or wrong we have to
 start somewhere. 

 Double key only reason it is in here is it is in P19 and
 as I stated I sort of like having a few of the same
 maneuvers as FAI (not the clown dance)  I need to try
 to fly it to see if it really a good maneuver or not but it
 is certainly an easy place to swap
  to a K4.

 Roll reversal:  The knife edge flight you have to
 roll the other way after knife edge to come out
 upright.  But one can be put in the stall turns as well
 or somewhere else if we think another one needs to be
 included.

 Snaps.  You are correct I misplaced one trying to
 simplify the pattern a little. Maybe after the 1 1/4 roll in
 the middle of the knife edge flight
 😊  
 I will look at the sequence and get one back in
 there.

 Stuart 

 Sent from Mail
 for Windows 10

 From: Frackowiak
 Tony

 Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:48 AM

 To: Stuart
 Chale; 
 General pattern discussion

 Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership /
 Masters different sequence

 Stuart, 

 #4. The description doesn't seem to make sense.
 Isn't it an upright entry, PUSH to 45, 2 of 4 roll, PULL
 to level flight, Full roll from upright to upright, PULL to
 45, 2 of 4 roll, push to exit upright? Or am I missing
 something? Also, it seems to be pushing
  being a K4. Here are the two closest examples in the
 Guide.

  Triangular loop (base at bottom) with
 half rolls in all legs, exit inverted (K4)

  Triangular loop from top (base at bottom)
 w/ half rolls on 45 degree legs, 2/4-pt roll on

 base leg (K5)

 It would seem that the maneuver proposed should be a K5.
 You might want to go with 1/2 rolls on all legs and redo a
 few things to get the upright/inverted thing going
 again.

 #6. I had to actually draw this one out to visualize it.
 Just so I'm sure, you enter inverted and at center push
 to a 30 degree angle? I like the maneuver but I think
 it's really a K5 not a 4. The Guide has no 6-sided loop
 on corner, but a standard 6-sided
  with just a 2 of 4 on top is a K4.

 #12. I still feel that a very good case can be made that
 this maneuver is a K5, not a K4. 

 Both snaps are in turnaround maneuvers. You need a center
 snap. Guide says:  Minimum of two Snap Rolls but
 no more than three (one may be a turnaround
 maneuver). 

 The only roll reversal is in the 4/8 opposite. You might
 want to incorporate another in one of the looping maneuvers.
 Maybe in the Figure Z. Maybe a 3 of 4 with a reverse 3 of 4.
 Or something less. Maybe just reverse the 2 rolls. But that
 might bump it to
  a K5 also.

 You have to address the snap issue and in my opinion you
 have too many K5 maneuvers. Maximum according to the Guide
 is 4. I think this has to be addressed. I would dump the
 Double Key and use a K4 from the Guide in it's place as
 a start.

 Otherwise to me it looks like a better pattern to work
 with then the current proposal.

 Is there any chance that what is worked out here might
 actually make it in as an official proposal?

 Tony Frackowiak

 On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:26 PM, Stuart Chale via
 NSRCA-discussion wrote:

 Thank you, you are correct I swapped the Cuban with a
 roll to allow better entry to the knife edge roll
 To keep the Cuban an inverted entry and exit we can
 change the spin to 3 turn spin with an inverted exit (may
 bump the k?)
 And change the stall turn to 1/2 roll down only.

 Masters
 proposal

 Maneuver

 KF

 Notes:

 1

 Takeoff
 (U)

 1

 2

 Double
 Immelman with knife edge flight (U)

 5

 Pull to
 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll
 same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop,
 immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same
 direction to level upright exit

 <olpknaibinkfmdnp.png>

 3

 1/2
 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg
 (TA)

 2

 4

 Pyramid
 loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)

 4

 Push back
 to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full
 roll  from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt
 roll, push to level upright exit

 5

 1/2
 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down
 line, exit inverted (TA)

 3

 (inverted
 exit)

 6

 Six sided
 loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
 inverted (U)

 4

 Push at
 center no rolls on vertical legs.  (inverted
 exit)

 7

 Humpty
 with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full roll
 on the downline, exit inverted.  Option 1/4 roll up 3/4
 roll down, exit inverted (TA)

 3

 (inverted
 exit)

 8

 4/8
 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)

 5

 (inverted
 exit)

 9

 Stall
 turn with 2/2 rolls up and 1/2 roll down, exit upright
 (TA)

 3

 10

 Double
 Key with full roll, 1/2 roll, 1/2 roll, full roll
 (U)

 5

 Pull to a
 vert up line, full roll, pull back to a 45 deg down line,
 1/2 roll, push to a 45 deg up line, 1/2 roll, pull to a
 vertical downline, full roll, pull to level upright
 exit

 11

 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a
 positive snap roll roll on the 45 (TA)

 3

 exit
 inverted

 12

 Knife
 edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)

 4

 13

 Top Hat,
 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)

 2

 14

 Figure Z
 with 2 consecutive rolls  (U)

 4

 15

 3 turn
 spin exit inverted (TA)

 2

 16

 Reverse
 cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)

 4

 17

 Stall
 turn with half roll down (TA)

 2

 18

 Loop with
 integrated roll in top 180 (U)*

 5

 19

 Landing
 (U)

 1

 Total
 K-factor

 62

 Goal is
 60 to 63

 On 7/9/2017 12:12 AM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
 wrote:

 Stuart,

 I believe the reverse cuban with full rolls should be from
 upright.

 Good luck with this.

 John

 _______________________________________________

 NSRCA-discussion mailing list

 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 _______________________________________________

 NSRCA-discussion mailing list

 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 _______________________________________________

 NSRCA-discussion mailing list

 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 _______________________________________________

 NSRCA-discussion mailing list

 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 _______________________________________________
 NSRCA-discussion mailing list
 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 <Stuart Masters Sequence for
 2018-19-1.xls>_______________________________________________

 NSRCA-discussion mailing list

 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 _______________________________________________

 NSRCA-discussion mailing list

 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 _______________________________________________

 NSRCA-discussion mailing list

 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

 _______________________________________________
 NSRCA-discussion mailing list
 NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
 http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion