[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 134, Issue 8

Thu Jan 12 15:15:07 AKST 2017

Here is my response to Peter Vogel comments on Ron Hansens questions -  See
comments in red below.

I wrote this because I do not see any benefit to NSRCA other than nationals.
What about the pilots who never intend to go to the nationals. AMA rules for
pattern not NSRCA.

So if NSRCA only for Nationals attendants and pilots do not go to NATS where
is the benefit. If the question cannot be answered reasonably and with
demonstrated benefits then getting in new pilots is a lost cause.

Only been in it 5 years and becoming disheartened in NSRCA.

Not here to discount anyone but answers are not being offered just rhetoric.
Also just want to say I believe the people involved in pattern are of the
greatest caliber. But change or die like it or not. We need to improve and
come up with real answers. I do not have them just commenting on the same
rhetoric I have heard since I started and guess what wearing thin with no
improvement in sight.

Steve Sobolewski

The "What are the benefits" question comes up a lot.  So much so, that
Charlie wrote an excellent article which you can find on the NSRCA.us web
site in the "new pilot info" section.  The important stuff is reproduced
below:

We are a Special Interest Group (SIG) in the AMA. The NSRCA advances our
interests to the AMA. The AMA represents all modelers within the
organization, but without our voice being heard, our segment of the hobby
would be forgotten, or at the very least not addressed. Many of you who
attend the Nationals (NATS) may not know that the AMA had initially assigned
the 2016 Precision Aerobatics NATS, to begin on July 5 th . Because of the 4
th of July holiday, and because of the usual travel involved by many to
attend the NATS, this date was not acceptable. The NSRCA immediately
protested, and the contest date was changed to July 10th. So as a pilot only
interested in local contests, so what does not help me.

Our purpose is best stated by the following:

?a. Act as a focal point for rules development and progression. Gather
intelligence from the AMA precision aerobatics community to provide the
basis for AMA rules change proposals.?  Do we not usually follow FAI
anyways? Except for sportsman thru masters also what progression spell it
out, where ?

You may recall that last year the NSRCA made rules change proposals to the
AMA, concerning telemetry, safety, specifically, electric motor arming,
transmitter impound, transmitter failsafe, and weight. These rule changes
were accepted by the AMA. These changes enhanced the safety of flying
precision aerobatics.  How did it enhance safety ? same AMA safety rules
apply to everyone nothing specific for NSRCA only rules changed were to keep
up with the times and technology or everyone flying Futaba , JR radios with
battery level feedback would have been disqualified. So 80% of the pilots
would have been out.

? b.  Promote precision aerobatics in the general R/C community by providing
leadership in all of the objectives of the society."  You need to explain
this.

" c.  Enhance model precision aerobatics as a recognized sport." Exactly
where is it a recognized sport except among the pattern community. I do not
see it on TV or cable channels.

" d.  Develop and provide high standards in judging for competitions and
provide qualifications and achievement recognition for judges.? Well let me
say this. I read online and then take a test immediately afterward, but no
critical information like length of line or requirements , kinda leaves it
up to the individual and their perception of geometry. Need organized
judging clinics and not for 2 hours, try to remember all the sequences even
with Peters phenomenal scoring system . Judging is a crap shoot. So where is
the high standard for judging?

The NSRCA sets standards for judging. Judging precision aerobatics in
District 1 is the same as in District 7. It is through the NSRCA judging
committee that the yearly judging review is published. Judging
recertification is free to members. (Of course non-members can also certify
for a nominal fee.) 

Again so what, If I do not go to Nationals who cares.

The KFactor magazine ? The KFactor is the identity of the NSRCA. It is
published once a month. It is the life blood of your pattern community. The
magazine can be downloaded directly from the web site, or mailed directly to
you. The advent of digital download has greatly decreased publication costs.
And because of this digital capability, our editor, Scott McHarg, has
delivered the KFactor on time for several years. If it?s April 1st , the
KFactor is available! 

Scott does a great job not knocking it but if I am paying dues for this SIG
I want the news and advertising free to everyone. I can look at Tower
Hobbies website free, I can even read articles online via news channels
free, why not this?

There are many interesting articles in the KFactor, whether how to build a
particular pattern plane, or how to paint, or which color is best suited for
good visibility. The KFactor also provides a means by which your DVP?s can
communicate with their district members. Yes, they usually publish contest
results as part of their reports. However, contest schedules are published
before the beginning of the season. They may also offer a building article
from time to time. If you have an interesting article that you would like to
share with your pattern buddies, submit it to your respective DVP for
publications. 

Agreed great articles , but guess what I already built a plane, and read on
RC Groups and RC Universe and got the same information  free way before I
joined NSRCA.

The NSRCA web page ? The  <http://nsrca.us> nsrca.us web page is your source
for nformation in our pattern community. It offers contest results, KFactor
access, sequences, judging, district news, and links to industry
manufacturers. Your Board of Directors are in discussions on how to enhance
our web page, and make it easier to navigate. Also, it has been suggested
that a separate link on the web site be dedicated only to building articles.
These articles will remain in this location indefinitely, for reference by
our members. So, in summary, it is to your advantage to join (renew) your
membership in the NSRCA. As you can see, there is a lot ?in it for me?.

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of nsrca-discussion-request at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 3:00 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 134, Issue 8

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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of NSRCA-discussion digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Growing Pattern for 2017 - Part 2 - Culture -	What are we
      missing? (Larry Diamond)
   2. Re: Growing Pattern for 2017 - Part 2 - Culture	-	What are we
      missing? (Jay Marshall)
   3. Re: Growing Pattern for 2017 - Part 2 - Culture - What are we
      missing? (Robert Campbell)
   4. JR 12X (Olstinske Dale)
   5. Re: JR 12X (Ed Alt)
   6. Re: JR 12X (Jon Lowe)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 21:37:44 -0600
From: "Larry Diamond" <ldiamond at diamondrc.com
<mailto:ldiamond at diamondrc.com> >
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Growing Pattern for 2017 - Part 2 -
	Culture -	What are we missing?
Message-ID: <000001d26c85$3ce115c0$b6a34140$@diamondrc.com
<mailto:000001d26c85$3ce115c0$b6a34140$@diamondrc.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Before Christmas, I posted an email challenging our culture as a concern
that prevents or limits growth in pattern.

My intent here is to spark discussion by offering my opinion, which is only
an opinion. A healthy debate on our culture as a SIG may be a good thing.

I stated that our culture hasn?t changed since I joined the NSRCA in 2003.
Peter?s e-mail below and the Hardcopy K-Factor thread is a perfect example
of how our culture has not kept up with the times.

Peter?s email below, and Ron Hansen?s, in the discussion ask a very basic
question that I don?t believe we as a whole have come to terms with:

What is in it for ?me? to be a member -and- participate in contests?

It is too easy to say, ?it?s the people? They aren?t willing to put in the
time, they aren?t willing to invest, they are not competative in nature?? 

For me, that is not the answer to the problem. I?m not sold that this is the
reason. It is a symptom, but not the root-cause. The problem we face in
growing pattern is selling our product, ?Pattern?. Yet, before we can sell
our product, we must understand what is it today.

When pattern was popular, it was because many of us were struck by somebody
who was flying pattern and ?we wanted to be one of them?. I don?t see this
happening today other than hit and miss.

Culture? Example? We want to take the hardcopy K-Factor away and only limit
access to a server base distribution mechanism that further limits our
audience. Why?, to save money for the NSRCA. I am perplexed and I say
what??? Is not the NSRCA a non-profit organization? Is increased membership
not the most stable way to generate funds? No?, its advertisers you say?
Didn?t somebody state that we are losing advertising dollars because the
businesses are not seeing the benefit from members? Is this concern not
related to the NSRCA membership population as a whole?

>From my point of view, it is all connected to our culture.

My recommendation is for the NSRCA Board to pull a committee together to
address the growth issue. We seem to discuss this every year. We also seem
to hover around the same membership population issues. Other than some
select folks giving a different spin at their contest, there is not much of
a push.

I am a bit skeptical about the premise of another club class being the
answer to the growth problem. I am in agreement with those that believe that
is why we have the Sportsman class.

Only my opinion, I could be wrong?

What are your thoughts?????

Larry Diamond

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2017 3:13 PM
To: Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com <mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com> >; General
pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Hardcopy K-Factor

The "What are the benefits" question comes up a lot.  So much so, that
Charlie wrote an excellent article which you can find on the NSRCA.us web
site in the "new pilot info" section.  The important stuff is reproduced
below:

We are a Special Interest Group (SIG) in the AMA. The NSRCA advances our
interests to the AMA. The AMA represents all modelers within the
organization, but without our voice being heard, our segment of the hobby
would be forgotten, or at the very least not addressed. Many of you who
attend the Nationals (NATS) may not know that the AMA had initially assigned
the 2016 Precision Aerobatics NATS, to begin on July 5 th . Because of the 4
th of July holiday, and because of the usual travel involved by many to
attend the NATS, this date was not acceptable. The NSRCA immediately
protested, and the contest date was changed to July 10th. 

Our purpose is best stated by the following:

?a. Act as a focal point for rules development and progression. Gather
intelligence from the AMA precision aerobatics community to provide the
basis for AMA rules change proposals.? 

You may recall that last year the NSRCA made rules change proposals to the
AMA, concerning telemetry, safety, specifically, electric motor arming,
transmitter impound, transmitter failsafe, and weight. These rule changes
were accepted by the AMA. These changes enhanced the safety of flying
precision aerobatics.

? b.  Promote precision aerobatics in the general R/C community by providing
leadership in all of the objectives of the society."

" c.  Enhance model precision aerobatics as a recognized sport."

" d.  Develop and provide high standards in judging for competitions and
provide qualifications and achievement recognition for judges.? 

The NSRCA sets standards for judging. Judging precision aerobatics in
District 1 is the same as in District 7. It is through the NSRCA judging
committee that the yearly judging review is published. Judging
recertification is free to members. (Of course non-members can also certify
for a nominal fee.) 

The KFactor magazine ? The KFactor is the identity of the NSRCA. It is
published once a month. It is the life blood of your pattern community. The
magazine can be downloaded directly from the web site, or mailed directly to
you. The advent of digital download has greatly decreased publication costs.
And because of this digital capability, our editor, Scott McHarg, has
delivered the KFactor on time for several years. If it?s April 1st , the
KFactor is available! 

There are many interesting articles in the KFactor, whether how to build a
particular pattern plane, or how to paint, or which color is best suited for
good visibility. The KFactor also provides a means by which your DVP?s can
communicate with their district members. Yes, they usually publish contest
results as part of their reports. However, contest schedules are published
before the beginning of the season. They may also offer a building article
from time to time. If you have an interesting article that you would like to
share with your pattern buddies, submit it to your respective DVP for
publications. 

The NSRCA web page ? The  <http://nsrca.us> nsrca.us web page is your source
for nformation in our pattern community. It offers contest results, KFactor
access, sequences, judging, district news, and links to industry
manufacturers. Your Board of Directors are in discussions on how to enhance
our web page, and make it easier to navigate. Also, it has been suggested
that a separate link on the web site be dedicated only to building articles.
These articles will remain in this location indefinitely, for reference by
our members. So, in summary, it is to your advantage to join (renew) your
membership in the NSRCA. As you can see, there is a lot ?in it for me?.

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Ron Hansen via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > > wrote:

What are the benefits of being a NSRCA member?

You don?t need to be a member to participate in contests?

I originally joined to get the Buyers Guide and the K-Factor.

I didn?t start competing for several years after that.

Couple of ideas I have is to go to quarterly newsletters and change our
model for advertisers.  Perhaps each issue has coupons rather than just
advertisements.  This would give companies feedback on how many people read
and buy products advertised in the K-Factor and our website.

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ] On Behalf Of James
Hiller via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 7:02 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Hardcopy K-Factor

Wow: I spent many years sitting in a desk chair in front of a PC. I'm happy
with reading the K-Factor on my monitor.
Paramount to my continuing is the notice Scott sends every month telling me
it's ready for download. I save them in a folder and leave them open until
I'm finished reading them, sometimes as long as 10 days.
I wouldn't like to see a dues increase to cover hard copy cost for those
that still want it and agree that a free copy may reduce membership.
I'm here for the long run regardless of what is decided.
Jim Hiller
Spokane WA

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [ <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tom Simes via
NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 2:53 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Hardcopy K-Factor

On 01/04/17 12:37, David Harmon wrote:
> Tom...that is an interesting twist that I had not considered....but 
> then I have always been a proponent of a 'members only' email list.
> However....I like the idea of letting other modelers know of our long 
> term existence....but not to give away the farm.
> Perhaps a second email list for NSRCA members could be considered for 
> K-F push distribution only....keeping the open 'chat' list as it is 
> that does not support attachments.

As far as list server support, I'm more than happy to accommodate whatever
the community and BoD decides to do.  A minor point of clarification, the
current NSRCA list configuration does allow attachments, but is size limited
to 500 KB per message per community request.  Note that the request dates
from when dialup was still common and people didn't want to wait 10 minutes
to download a single message.

That limit is easily configurable and I would have no issue bumping it up to
allow low resolution .pdf distribution of the K Factor either on the
existing -discussion list or on a dedicated list for K Factor distribution.

--
Tom

======================================================================
    "Z80 system stack overflow.  Shut 'er down Scotty, she's
          sucking mud again!" - Error message on XENIX v3.0

Tom Simes
<mailto:simestd at netexpress.com> simestd at netexpress.com
<mailto:simestd at netexpress.com> 
======================================================================
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-- 

Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training

Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark

Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X

Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)

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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 08:51:37 -0500
From: "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com <mailto:lightfoot at sc.rr.com> >
To: "'Larry Diamond'" <ldiamond at diamondrc.com
<mailto:ldiamond at diamondrc.com> >, "'General pattern
	discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Growing Pattern for 2017 - Part 2 -
	Culture	-	What are we missing?
Message-ID: <000001d26cda$fe8a42f0$fb9ec8d0$@sc.rr.com
<mailto:000001d26cda$fe8a42f0$fb9ec8d0$@sc.rr.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

All I have read so far is the opinions of NSRCA members on why the
organization is growing. A good marketing plan would be to ask the
non-members why they are not interested, or what would entice them to become
involved.

Jay Marshall

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Larry Diamond via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:38 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Growing Pattern for 2017 - Part 2 - Culture -
What are we missing?