[NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
Jas
justanotherflyr at gmail.com
Mon Jun 8 09:48:23 AKDT 2015
Oh well, worth a shot
Sent from my iP
> On Jun 8, 2015, at 1:43 PM, Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'll be at Stephen Sobolewski's contest in Chicago at the end of the month.
>
> I'm open to traveling to 1-2 more contests this year after that. I do have family commitments for the end of August/beginning of September (my 25th anniversary). The closer you are to a vacation destination where my wife could come and have fun when I'm at the contest the more likely I am to be able to come at this point :-)
>
> Peter+
>
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Jas <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hmmm maybe for the contest at the end of the month :)
>>
>> Sent from my iP
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.patternscoring.com
>>>
>>> There's a brief intro and a video at the bottom showing how the system works.
>>>
>>> Peter+
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 9:40 AM, John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>> Where can you find info on the system?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 11:13 AM
>>>> To: Atwood, Mark; General pattern discussion
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> See if this is any better…. Straight text.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) It works. Period. End of story. 25 guys who had never touched it before not only learned it, but used it efficiently with a 5 minute intro and sitting down and scoring a demo flight. ZERO missed maneuvers, no lost scores, no complaints. NADA.
>>>>
>>>> 2) The system actually uses downgrade scoring. I.e. you click the 1/2pt (or full pt) down everytime you see a downgrade. It takes practice flight before you realize that you need to click on everything you see…rather than do mental math or create a perception of the maneuver, but once you do, it’s enlightening.
>>>>
>>>> 3) The score range widens. This is a good thing. It wasn’t drastic, but rather than a long diatribe of 7’s and 8’s, if you go look at the score sheets (I highly suggest surfing through the www.patternscoring.com site) you’ll see many score sheets that feature both 5’s and 10’s on the same page.
>>>>
>>>> 4) More 10’s. If you don’t see a downgrade…that 10 is just sitting there. There’s no longer the pressure to write down a 9 simply because “no one actually flies a 10”.
>>>>
>>>> 5) Long complex maneuvers (hour glass for example) get the pounding they deserve. The opportunity for downgrades in these maneuvers is massive…and when the judge is just clicking away, well… we get hammered. And we should. Every missed angle, every missed radius, the over cooked snap, etc etc. Your 7 just became a 4.5
>>>>
>>>> 6) Surprisingly consistent judging between both judges on the line. Shockingly consistent actually. I consider that another endorsement for the system.
>>>>
>>>> 7) More engaged judging. This was big for me. I personally feel like I start to glaze over after the 8th (or worse …18th) Masters flight in a contest. It’s very hard to stay consistent and stay alert and not revert to perception judging in the old paper and pencil format. This eliminated that completely. You’re actively engaged throughout each maneuver and each flight. Both physically recording downgrades and watching intently for them. I felt it was MUCH easier to be a good judge and an alert judge.
>>>>
>>>> 8) Every maneuver called out loud for the judge, for every pilot, for every round. This made judging the new sequences, which I hadn’t judged yet, simple.
>>>>
>>>> 9) You never need to look down from the plane. Really. Never. What’s interesting here is that you begin to notice all the downgrades that occur in the transition between manuevers. No more free fixes!
>>>>
>>>> 10) It seems to greatly reduce or even eliminate the influence that the prior maneuver has on the scores. I know this shouldn’t be the case… but we all know it is. Someone that’s flown a train wreck of 6’s suddenly flies a clean Split S turn and think “wow…that was pretty good…8”. On this system you’re just clicking downgrades…that same Split S just scored a 10. As it should have.
>>>>
>>>> 11) Your scores are up on the big screen, normalized to whom ever has already flown that round, before your plane rolls to a stop. Literally. And if you’re up first?? Well, take a picture because for the moment… you’re winning!
>>>>
>>>> In summary, this will be the single biggest advancement in scoring for pattern since the introduction of normalization. It’s going to take a year or two to get everyone in the country familiar with the system (and get systems purchased for use) before we can use it at a Nats, but we’ll get there, and quickly. I was extremely skeptical, for about 5 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You’ll fear it. You’ll use it. You’ll love it.
>>>>
>>>> ‘nuff said.
>>>>
>>>> Well done Peter. Very well done.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Mark
>>>>
>>>> MARK ATWOOD
>>>>
>>>> President
>>>>
>>>> o. (440) 229-2502
>>>>
>>>> c. (216) 316-2489
>>>>
>>>> e. atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paragon Consulting, Inc.
>>>>
>>>> 5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>>>>
>>>> www.paragon-inc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Powering The Digital Experience
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:34 AM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What the Heck???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mine didn’t come through that way at all!! Sorry guys… I’ll see if I can repost it cleaner.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MARK ATWOOD
>>>>
>>>> President
>>>>
>>>> o. (440) 229-2502
>>>>
>>>> c. (216) 316-2489
>>>>
>>>> e. atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paragon Consulting, Inc.
>>>>
>>>> 5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>>>>
>>>> www.paragon-inc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Powering The Digital Experience
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you fumble through all of the weird format issues with Mark's email there is a lot of great comments there and just about everyone will agree with every one. I was asked many time when is our district going to buy one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) It works. Period. End of story. 25 guys who had never touched it before not only learned it, but used it efficiently with a 5 minute intro and sitting down and scoring a demo flight. ZERO missed maneuvers, no lost scores, no complaints. NADA.
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) The system actually uses downgrade scoring. I.e. you click the 1/2pt (or full pt) down everytime you see a downgrade. It takes practice flight before you realize that you need to click on everything you see…rather than do mental math or create a perception of the maneuver, but once you do, it’s enlightening.
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) The score range widens. This is a good thing. It wasn’t drastic, but rather than a long diatribe of 7’s and 8’s, if you go look at the score sheets (I highly suggest surfing through the www.patternscoring.com site) you’ll see many score sheets that feature both 5’s and 10’s on the same page.
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) More 10’s. If you don’t see a downgrade…that 10 is just sitting there. There’s no longer the pressure to write down a 9 simply because “no one actually flies a 10”.
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) Long complex maneuvers (hour glass for example) get the pounding they deserve. The opportunity for downgrades in these maneuvers is massive…and when the judge is just clicking away, well… we get hammered. And we should. Every missed angle, every missed radius, the over cooked snap, etc etc. Your 7 just became a 4.5
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) Surprisingly consistent judging between both judges on the line. Shockingly consistent actually. I consider that another endorsement for the system.
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) More engaged judging. This was big for me. I personally feel like I start to glaze over after the 8th (or worse …18th) Masters flight in a contest. It’s very hard to stay consistent and stay alert and not revert to perception judging in the old paper and pencil format. This eliminated that completely. You’re actively engaged throughout each maneuver and each flight. Both physically recording downgrades and watching intently for them. I felt it was MUCH easier to be a good judge and an alert judge.
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) Every maneuver called out loud for the judge, for every pilot, for every round. This made judging the new sequences, which I hadn’t judged yet, simple.
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) You never need to look down from the plane. Really. Never. What’s interesting here is that you begin to notice all the downgrades that occur in the transition between manuevers. No more free fixes!
>>>>
>>>> cussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 15:25:33 +0000
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic Score Entry System - Thoughts
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had the privilege this weekend of using Peter Vogel’s new electronic score entry system this weekend. I don’t want to call it a scoring system because that credit should still go to Scott Smith whose scoring program is what Peter’s system is integrated with. Both of these gentleman have put in 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of programming into this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it’s fantastic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So some thoughts about new score entry system in no particular order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) It seems to greatly reduce or even eliminate the influence that the prior maneuver has on the scores. I know this shouldn’t be the case… but we all know it is. Someone that’s flown a train wreck of 6’s suddenly flies a clean Split S turn and think “wow…that was pretty good…8”. On this system you’re just clicking downgrades…that same Split S just scored a 10. As it should have.
>>>>
>>>> 11) Your scores are up on the big screen, normalized to whom ever has already flown that round, before your plane rolls to a stop. Literally. And if you’re up first?? Well, take a picture because for the moment… you’re winning!
>>>>
>>>> In summary, this will be the single biggest advancement in scoring for pattern since the introduction of normalization. It’s going to take a year or two to get everyone in the country familiar with the system (and get systems purchased for use) before we can use it at a Nats, but we’ll get there, and quickly. I was extremely skeptical, for about 5 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You’ll fear it. You’ll use it. You’ll love it.
>>>>
>>>> ‘nuff said.
>>>>
>>>> Well done Peter. Very well done.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Mark
>>>>
>>>> MARK ATWOOD
>>>>
>>>> President
>>>>
>>>> o. (440) 229-2502
>>>>
>>>> c. (216) 316-2489
>>>>
>>>> e. atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paragon Consulting, Inc.
>>>>
>>>> 5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>>>>
>>>> www.paragon-inc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Powering The Digital Experience
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> --
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
>
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