[NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
John Gayer
jgghome at comcast.net
Mon Feb 23 11:44:04 AKST 2015
I agree. Relying on the ESC to shut down when RF is lost is making major
assumptions that all ESCs meet a requirement that they always shut down
on loss of throttle signal. There is no such requirement. Using TX
shutdown as a means of controlling power to the motor may work just fine
for individuals that have a well thought out process that is followed
consistently. I would point out that these process-oriented individuals
have mostly protected others and their models as the pilot is typically
not in the line of fire.
I could not recommend using a TX shutdown as a throttle shutoff device.
There are too many models out there with failsafes that are not set up
properly. In addition to those who leave their failsafe in hold, there
are plenty of ESCs setup without fixed endpoints that might not shut
down completely, particularly with changes in the throttle curve.
I also don't like shutting down the receiver to prevent activation.
While fully functioning top of the line products should be fine, not
everyone uses them.
While the arming plug should be an important part of your safety
process, I agree that checking failsafe operation for full motor
shutdown at both the Nats and local contests is critical to safe field
operation and should be an AMA rule for everyday field operations.
Until it is we need to implement our own rule.
I would ask all of you, if when you set up a new model or after
modifications, whether you check for failsafe operation with the model
fully restrained and the throttle advanced somewhat and also check that
you can shutdown the receiver and have the motor stop. If this is not
your normal process, it should be.
It is not those who have a good process and follow it consistently that
cause the problem. It does appear in this thread that there are those
that feel because they are doing a good job that we don't need any rules
on motor safety. Not so. There are plenty of others that need some rules
to follow and the CDs need some guidance on what to check.
I'm curious whether everyone that is complaining about an extra point of
failure due to an arming plug is running a redundant radio power system?
John
On 2/23/2015 11:56 AM, Chris via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> I have personally tested 2 ESCs for 10S (budget brands) that flew
> just fine but would start up on their own if you turned the receiver
> off without unplugging the flight battery. In both cases, I notified
> the manufacturer and one never replied and the other said their ESC
> "worked as intended" so be very careful expecting the electronics to
> always work as you think they should.
>
> I agree that high end equipment and flawless installation and usage is
> a safe way to go but way too many of the planes I have seen have
> neither of these qualities and a mechanical break in the power lead is
> 100% effective.
>
> Nobody yet has mentioned probably the most important issue and that is
> I don't want someone else responsible for removing my canopy and
> plugging /unplugging the battery and in the case of preflight, making
> sure the canopy is reinstalled securely prior to flight or removing it
> on the runway only to have it blow across the concrete while trying to
> unplug the flight battery after flight.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On 2/23/2015 1:30 PM, Ron Hansen via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>> How many have witnessed one or more of the following events:
>>
>> Taken off without properly charged receiver, transmitter or primary
>> batteries
>>
>> Forgot to plug in ailerons
>>
>> Forgot to insert wing bolts
>>
>> Forgot to turn off transmitter or receiver at the end of flight
>>
>> Forgot to disarm batteries at the end of flight
>>
>> Seems to me far too many responding to this thread suggest these
>> things have never happen. Those folks are not being honest.
>>
>> Argue the merits of why an external visual indicator should not be in
>> our AMA rules. Saying it isn't foolproof or adds weight or cost too
>> much or it never happens in your experience doesn't carry weight with
>> me.
>>
>> These things happen far more often than we care to admit.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the failsafe demonstration should occur when the airplanes
>>> are processed - weighed and measured?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Ronald Van Putte via
>>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I use an arming system on my competition airplanes. That
>>> doesn’t make my system foolproof, but I fail to see that it
>>> introduces safety issues. Maybe the wiring could fail and the
>>> motor not start when commanded, but any reasonable wiring
>>> failure I can think of would not result in the motor running.
>>>
>>> Of greater concern to me is that many pilots either have not or
>>> have improperly set up the failsafe for when the transmitter is
>>> turned off. I witnessed an accident that resulted in the
>>> destruction of one airplane and severe damage of another when
>>> the pilot turned off his transmitter. Fortunately, nobody was hurt.
>>>
>>> I am tempted to ask the Nats event director (Bob Kane) to have
>>> the line chiefs request that pilots demonstrate their airplane’s
>>> failsafe operation prior to their first official flight at the Nats.
>>>
>>> Ron Van Putte
>>>
>>>> On Feb 23, 2015, at 11:05 AM, DaveL322 via NSRCA-discussion
>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How many runaways have happened with electrics at pattern
>>>> contests? Since maybe 2008 when substantial numbers of
>>>> electrics were being used? Personally, I have never seen one.
>>>>
>>>> How many IC engines have I seen inadvertently started at half
>>>> or full throttle since 2008? I have personally seen several.
>>>>
>>>> Have there been instances of of arming plugs and wiring fail? Yes.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of things could go wrong resulting in a potential safety
>>>> hazard with IC or electric patterns planes. Having a safe
>>>> procedure and sticking to it 100% is the issue.....accidents
>>>> happens when procedures are not followed. Arming plugs
>>>> themselves do not make electrics safe....they do introduce
>>>> another failure point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> From: Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion
>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> Date:02/23/2015 11:50 AM (GMT-05:00)
>>>> To: Matthew Finley <rcfin02 at msn.com <mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com>>,
>>>> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley ( Arming Plug )
>>>>
>>>> At nearly every contest I've attended since I started flying
>>>> electric in pattern (the 2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at
>>>> least one occurrence where someone retrieved a plane without
>>>> removing an arming plug first. Usually the pilot reminds the
>>>> person to do it while they're carrying the plane back or as
>>>> they're setting it down somewhere. It happens with my planes
>>>> too and I make sure they switch the receiver off and then I
>>>> remove my canopy and disconnect the battery directly. But
>>>> before they even get that far I've taken the other steps to
>>>> make sure there's virtually no chance the motor is going to run.
>>>>
>>>> My point is this. A layered approach is the only way I've
>>>> found to effectively mitigate this particular risk to the
>>>> levels of safety that you claim. Relying on someone to remove
>>>> an arming plug is not a complete panacea and may lend a false
>>>> sense of security that the motor system has been de-energized,
>>>> when in fact it may not have been. There's many ways to manage
>>>> the risk to the desired level, the use of an arming plug is
>>>> one, and may not necessarily be the best.
>>>>
>>>> Jerry
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew Finley via
>>>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> *I use the Ultra Deans stlye Arming Plug from F3A Unlimited,
>>>>> and It works very well. I would gather it provides you with a
>>>>> 99 % dagree of confidence that your caller , plane carrier ,
>>>>> yourself, or anyone else will not be harmed. Yes... I do agree
>>>>> that there is a miniscuel chance that a pilot / caller could
>>>>> forget to unplug the safety, however I feel most pilots that
>>>>> have been doing it a while is like tying your shoes, or
>>>>> etc.... On all of my electrics except for indoor ships, I have
>>>>> some sort of disconnect. I for one would like to see it an
>>>>> inforced rule at all sanctioned meets not just pattern
>>>>> meets, that any plane over a certain size or weight must have
>>>>> one in order to fly. Just my three pennies
>>>>> *
>>>>>
>>>>> /*Matthew E. Finley*/
>>>>> QCI - Technology Assistant
>>>>> 614-557-3846 <tel:614-557-3846> Mobile
>>>>> mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com
>>>>> <mailto:mfinley at quadcityinnovations.com>
>>>>>
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