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I agree. Relying on the ESC to shut down when RF is lost is making
major assumptions that all ESCs meet a requirement that they always
shut down on loss of throttle signal. There is no such requirement.
Using TX shutdown as a means of controlling power to the motor may
work just fine for individuals that have a well thought out process
that is followed consistently. I would point out that these
process-oriented individuals have mostly protected others and their
models as the pilot is typically not in the line of fire.<br>
I could not recommend using a TX shutdown as a throttle shutoff
device. There are too many models out there with failsafes that are
not set up properly. In addition to those who leave their failsafe
in hold, there are plenty of ESCs setup without fixed endpoints that
might not shut down completely, particularly with changes in the
throttle curve.<br>
I also don't like shutting down the receiver to prevent
activation. While fully functioning top of the line products should
be fine, not everyone uses them. <br>
While the arming plug should be an important part of your safety
process, I agree that checking failsafe operation for full motor
shutdown at both the Nats and local contests is critical to safe
field operation and should be an AMA rule for everyday field
operations. Until it is we need to implement our own rule.<br>
I would ask all of you, if when you set up a new model or after
modifications, whether you check for failsafe operation with the
model fully restrained and the throttle advanced somewhat and also
check that you can shutdown the receiver and have the motor stop. If
this is not your normal process, it should be.<br>
It is not those who have a good process and follow it consistently
that cause the problem. It does appear in this thread that there are
those that feel because they are doing a good job that we don't need
any rules on motor safety. Not so. There are plenty of others that
need some rules to follow and the CDs need some guidance on what to
check.<br>
I'm curious whether everyone that is complaining about an extra
point of failure due to an arming plug is running a redundant radio
power system?<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/23/2015 11:56 AM, Chris via
NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:BLU436-SMTP8300D5B9AD72F2F27B75A483290@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
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I have personally tested 2 ESCs for 10S (budget brands) that flew
just fine but would start up on their own if you turned the
receiver off without unplugging the flight battery. In both
cases, I notified the manufacturer and one never replied and the
other said their ESC "worked as intended" so be very careful
expecting the electronics to always work as you think they
should. <br>
<br>
I agree that high end equipment and flawless installation and
usage is a safe way to go but way too many of the planes I have
seen have neither of these qualities and a mechanical break in the
power lead is 100% effective.<br>
<br>
Nobody yet has mentioned probably the most important issue and
that is I don't want someone else responsible for removing my
canopy and plugging /unplugging the battery and in the case of
preflight, making sure the canopy is reinstalled securely prior to
flight or removing it on the runway only to have it blow across
the concrete while trying to unplug the flight battery after
flight.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/23/2015 1:30 PM, Ron Hansen via
NSRCA-discussion wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E5933EC7-86BB-4AFF-94D3-11F8C6AE867F@wowway.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
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<div>How many have witnessed one or more of the following
events:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Taken off without properly charged receiver, transmitter or
primary batteries</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to plug in ailerons </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to insert wing bolts</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to turn off transmitter or receiver at the end of
flight </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Forgot to disarm batteries at the end of flight</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Seems to me far too many responding to this thread suggest
these things have never happen. Those folks are not being
honest. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Argue the merits of why an external visual indicator should
not be in our AMA rules. Saying it isn't foolproof or adds
weight or cost too much or it never happens in your experience
doesn't carry weight with me. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These things happen far more often than we care to admit. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Feb 23, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Derek Koopowitz via
NSRCA-discussion <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">I think the failsafe demonstration should
occur when the airplanes are processed - weighed and
measured?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:38 AM,
Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I use an arming
system on my competition airplanes. That doesn’t
make my system foolproof, but I fail to see that it
introduces safety issues. Maybe the wiring could
fail and the motor not start when commanded, but any
reasonable wiring failure I can think of would not
result in the motor running.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Of greater concern to me is that many pilots
either have not or have improperly set up the
failsafe for when the transmitter is turned off.
I witnessed an accident that resulted in the
destruction of one airplane and severe damage of
another when the pilot turned off his
transmitter. Fortunately, nobody was hurt.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am tempted to ask the Nats event director
(Bob Kane) to have the line chiefs request that
pilots demonstrate their airplane’s failsafe
operation prior to their first official flight at
the Nats.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron Van Putte</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Feb 23, 2015, at 11:05 AM, DaveL322
via NSRCA-discussion <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">How
many runaways have happened with electrics
at pattern contests? Since maybe 2008
when substantial numbers of electrics were
being used? Personally, I have never
seen one.</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">How
many IC engines have I seen inadvertently
started at half or full throttle since
2008? I have personally seen several.</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Have
there been instances of of arming plugs
and wiring fail? Yes.</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">A
lot of things could go wrong resulting in
a potential safety hazard with IC or
electric patterns planes. Having a safe
procedure and sticking to it 100% is the
issue.....accidents happens when
procedures are not followed. Arming plugs
themselves do not make electrics
safe....they do introduce another failure
point.</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<span
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Regards,</span>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Dave</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Sent
on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3</div>
<br
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">--------
Original message --------</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">From:
Budd Engineering via NSRCA-discussion <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Date:02/23/2015
11:50 AM (GMT-05:00)<span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">To:
Matthew Finley <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rcfin02@msn.com"
target="_blank">rcfin02@msn.com</a>>,
General pattern discussion <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Cc:<span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Matt Finley (
Arming Plug )<span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">At
nearly every contest I've attended since I
started flying electric in pattern (the
2004 Nats in Masters) I've seen at least
one occurrence where someone retrieved a
plane without removing an arming plug
first. Usually the pilot reminds the
person to do it while they're carrying the
plane back or as they're setting it down
somewhere. It happens with my planes too
and I make sure they switch the receiver
off and then I remove my canopy and
disconnect the battery directly. But
before they even get that far I've taken
the other steps to make sure there's
virtually no chance the motor is going to
run.</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">My
point is this. A layered approach is the
only way I've found to effectively
mitigate this particular risk to the
levels of safety that you claim. Relying
on someone to remove an arming plug is not
a complete panacea and may lend a false
sense of security that the motor system
has been de-energized, when in fact it may
not have been. There's many ways to
manage the risk to the desired level, the
use of an arming plug is one, and may not
necessarily be the best.</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Jerry<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
On Feb 23, 2015, at 5:29 AM, Matthew
Finley via NSRCA-discussion <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
style="font-family:ArialMS;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><b>I use the Ultra Deans
stlye Arming Plug from F3A
Unlimited, and It works very well. I
would gather it provides you with a
99 % dagree of confidence that your
caller , plane carrier , yourself,
or anyone else will not be harmed.
Yes... I do agree that there is a
miniscuel chance that a pilot /
caller could forget to unplug the
safety, however I feel most pilots
that have been doing it a while is
like tying your shoes, or etc.... On
all of my electrics except for
indoor ships, I have some sort of
disconnect. I for one would like to
see it an inforced rule at all
sanctioned meets not just pattern
meets, that any plane over a certain
size or weight must have one in
order to fly. Just my three pennies<span> </span><br>
</b><br>
<br>
<i><b>Matthew E. Finley</b></i><br>
QCI - Technology Assistant<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:614-557-3846"
value="+16145573846" target="_blank">614-557-3846</a>
Mobile<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mfinley@quadcityinnovations.com"
target="_blank">mfinley@quadcityinnovations.com</a><span> </span><br>
<br>
<span> </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
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