[NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed Advanced maneuvers

Tue Jul 29 03:47:16 AKDT 2014

I would agree with Chuck, especially on the "know your plane" part. 

So much of the coaching I've given to pattern fliers over the years involves flying the plane intensely…which means over and over again…with the vast majority of flights in a given month on the pattern plane. It really is a discipline sport and not much of it can be "part-time".  Often, I will spend whole weekends just flying past myself doing rolls, knife-edge, loops, snaps, or verticals…just to remind myself how the plane handles…it's amazing how we forget stuff or teach ourselves bad habits by flying only the straight pattern at contests. 

I know a few good pilots that bring four planes to the field and fly the pattern plane only one flight at the end of the day when the wind dies, and then say that they aren't attending the next pattern contest AT THEIR FIELD because "patterns are way too difficult". 

I know a gentleman who once showed up at the field only three years ago, with a old beat-up wrinkled Focus running a brown-tarnished OS 2-stroke under a cracked cowling. He paid only a few hundred for the package, but he so much wanted to win a contest that he flew the heck outta that plane, and flew nothing else. We coached him, helped him set up his plane, and guess what…he placed and then won a contest. He wasn't ashamed of his plane, and he relied on himself…not on the plane…to win.

I'm sorry, but yes, I've seen lots of people buy 70- or 110-sized pattern planes "because they are cheaper", but I seldom remember seeing anyone who showed up at a contest saying that their 70-sized plane is the ONLY plane they own/fly, or the ONLY plane they can afford. If they did (and I remember one such person), they usually had their thumbs wired to their hearts and out-flew everyone else. 
Usually, however, the "cheaper" 70-sized pattern plane sits next to the 110-inch Extra 300 gasser in the trailer or sits next to a dozen other sport planes and three radios in the basement. 

I hear the concerns, but I think choices can and need to be made. I personally own only one plane, fly it 100% of the time, what little time I have…and my worst fear is that the pattern never changes or gets easier. That will be my cue to try scale or jets. 

John

On Jul 29, 2014, at 5:58 AM, Chuck Hochhalter via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Chuck Hochhalter <cahochhalter at yahoo.com>
>> Date: July 28, 2014, 5:35:47 PM CDT
>> To: Del R <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed Advanced maneuvers
>> 
>> Del, absolutely spot on. I appreciate and agree with you... Almost ;) 
>> 
>> There are options all the way to the masters class that are very affordable and adequate. 
>> 
>> Motors- dualsky, scorpion, himax
>> 
>> Batts- sky lipo, hobby people, g force 
>> 
>> Controller- sky fun, castle (not badly priced), jeti advance
>> 
>> Servos- sport servos from jr are adequate
>> 
>> Airframe- vanquish, monolog, used airframe, older airframe. Build a kit from insightrc.
>> 
>>  I contend any airframe less than 8 yes ago will fly the masters pattern , setup is KEY TO being prepared. The integrated roll at the top of a loop can easily be flown with any airframe with moderate practice. So little rudder if any is required to accomplish this. Timing and an understanding of the maneuver makes this easier. Gravity does most of the work and timing does the rest.
>> 
>> Do more modern airframes make things easier yes, but at times there is a price.... BIG fuse sides roll easily, but they are more work in the wind. Small fuses cut like a knife but require better knowledge of rudder and proper application. 
>> 
>> All being said, if you don't know your plane intimately, you will struggle and hate certain maneuvers or conditions.
>> 
>> I want to encourage everyone in advanced and masters to embrace the challenge and get help if you need it from other pilots that are better than you. We all strive for tens... Sometimes we succeed , sometimes we fail, but we accept the challenge and practice with a goal.
>> 
>> Chuck
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 5:19 PM, "Del R" <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Not meaning this comment to attack or to be condescending to anyone but, after many years of competing with both outdated equipment and modern current equipment the differences are DRAMATIC.  Now with that being said everyone average may be different but when more complex maneuvers are added to the schedule you need to have the equipment that will fly it competently. If you are campaigning a 70 inches 6# plane and flying masters, I defy the best at the contest to beat someone in the master or FAI class with that plane if there are equally competent pilots.. equipment does matter of course..  You need light planes and power to do many of the maneuvers. If you want them done well you have to be practiced and have adequate equipment.. A friend for years campaigned less than cutting edge equipment and didn't realize how badly he was beating himself that no amount of practice would overcome.. Then one day he flew a currently campaigned model and found out the complication factor dropped by a factor of 2 or 3.. Why.. The plane was designed for flying those maneuvers and presenting them well with less input from the pilot.. Now his workload dropped dramatically and he could stay ahead of the model and make corrections 3 times easier because the workload was much less.. So if you believe the lies that campaigning a lesser model still makes you competitive you really need to put your money where your mouth is. 
>>>  
>>> Please do not take this as a personal attack on you Chuck.. My reply to this thread is not directed at you..  There are more than a couple who have made similar claims over the years and that lie is accepted by pilots who don't know any better and believe what higher class competitors share with them.. Yes you can still fly an Ugly stick in the beginning class and do well if you are a good pilot and know how to present the maneuvers.. But realize if someone shows up with a full blown 2 meter pattern ship adequately powered but don't know how to present the maneuvers the stick will win.. On the other hand a stick will have a big disadvantage in the wind and against a skillful pilot.  
>>>  
>>> So yes Chuck you are correct in used equipment from top pilots is normally better than average. It is a competitive sport and by its very nature if you want to be equally competitive you have to better than average equipment if your practice window is limited d/t time constraints,weather, etc. you want to be as competitive as your budget can accommodate.
>>>  
>>>     Del
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Chuck Hochhalter via NSRCA-discussion
>>> To: Gary Switala ; General pattern discussion
>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 9:20 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2015 proposed Advanced maneuvers
>>> 
>>> I disagree with average not being good enough to compete with. I have flown and competed successfully with avg equipment.
>>> 
>>> One can also purchased very good used equipment from top pilots that has "better than avg" stuff in it often.
>>> 
>>> Chuck
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Jul 27, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Gary Switala via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>     My comments on the new  Advance schedule. I have 20 + flights on it with both other pattern guys and club members observing. The comments of the club members are:  “Why is everything upside down?“; “ makes no sense to me“; from the pattern guys  “ugly, damn ugly”;  and “WTF.”  From the flights I have put in I see that it’s not for the average Advanced flyer with an average plane with an average motor with an average battery set and with an average ESC . So looks like more $$$$ needs to be spent.  Some of the maneuvers are bad enough, but the way they are arranged the true difficulty in their relationship to proceeding and succeeding maneuvers are not taken into account.  As in # 5 to #6 and #9 to #10 to #11. I also do not understand why the figure 9 is only a K Factor of 1?? And why is the Shark’s tooth given the same K as the one we’re doing now. The new proposed one is an entirely different maneuver and considerably more difficult as proposed.  This is a descending maneuver at 45 degs. doing  2/2 reverse rolls  trying to slow the model down and hold a straight line and have enough speed and power to get through the outside Avalanche.  I also take exception with the way the Hourglass has been butchered. It would make more sense replacing it with the Standing Eight starting in the center with options as it would add some of the missing gracefulness needed.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Caution
>>>> 
>>>> 
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