<div dir="ltr">The competitor has to demonstrate that an exit line and entry line exists between two maneuvers. If the judge has to think about whether the line was an exit line or an entry line then a deduction should be made. All the rule book states is that a line must exist - yes, we know there is no defined length to that line - so if a judge has to think about it then it should be a deduction. <div>
<br></div><div>To me it's just like point rolls... if the judge thinks that there wasn't a point then the competitor did not clearly demonstrate the point and a deduction should be made. Remember, it is up to the competitor to clearly demonstrate all elements of the maneuver so that there should be no ambiguity.</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 3:16 AM, Del R <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com" target="_blank">drykert2@rochester.rr.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Playing devils advocate here but how
is a judge supposed to know if you argue one uses the straight line drawn where
in the straight line do you start to judge the next maneuver? Is the judge take
all straight lines and split them down the middle and give 1/2 to the preceding
maneuver? That also is never clearly addressed! Thus judges for years have been
forced to make assumptions of where maneuvers truly start. Thus many looked for
the first push or pull and as long as it was preceded by a straight line all
were happy. (Judge and contestant) Creating maneuvers that create judging
headaches don't help. Clearly defined leads to well presented. Some maneuvers
have longer straight lines than others. When you barely have a straight line
presented at all doesn't that create grounds for downgrade? It is not
specifically mentioned. </font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#0000ff 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="geobet4evr@gmail.com" href="mailto:geobet4evr@gmail.com" target="_blank">George
Kennie</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">General pattern discussion</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:04
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the
Judges Chair</div>
<div><br></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Boy, you guys got me wondering what all the hub-bub was all about so I
had to go and take a look and I think that I'm probably in partial agreement
with John. As I see it,It's simple geometry. After the turnaround it has to be
classified as a "center maneuver" and center maneuvers should be centered
! The total width of the maneuver is equal to the diameter of the loop,
therefore the loop must be presented in a way that displays one half of it's
area, irrespective of it's size, on either side of the center line which would
require that the vertical upline be offset past center on entry a
distance equal to the radius of the loop. The loop is the key element for the
centering of this maneuver and the Aresti is incorrectly drawn
IMHO. Sorry if I muddied the waters here guys, but the forum
appeared to be open.</div>
<div>Georgie</div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:02 PM, John Gayer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net" target="_blank">jgghome@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Derek,<br>"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop
portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in the 3/4
loop portion but not somewhere.<br>The center you are describing would
appear to be affected somehow by the entry and exit lines of the maneuver as
per your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see that. This
maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop with a straight
vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three quadrants. What
rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places the center of the
maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as it would for a
simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on the centerline and so
would the return to level flight at the exit.<br>As far as the straight line
entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see that either. The entry line
ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line begins upon completion of the
3/4 loop. Those two points should form a vertical line. I see that as the
maneuver centerline as well.<br>It's certainly true that the aresti shows
the wrong center and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has
the last word but he should be using a better word than
"somewhere".<br>John<br>
<div>On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt">Anthony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt">This
shouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle
point between the start and end of the maneuver. How much more
simple can it get? The statement that the “middle should be
somewhere in the ¾ loop portion” is correct – depending on the size of the
¾ loop which must match the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to
vertical when the maneuver starts. That center portion will change
for every pilot as each pilot will fly it
differently.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt">Your
comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it
differently then they are incorrect. The clarification I got is
straight from the F3 sub-committee chair…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt">-Derek<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(31,73,125);FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:rgb(225,225,225) 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:11pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:11pt"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Anthony Romano<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27
AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges
Chair<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Would
love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March
Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the
maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many
outside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the
latest FAI sporting code show the upline being
centered.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">A bit
confusing,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Anthony<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="TEXT-ALIGN:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00
-0700<br>From: <a href="mailto:joncarter60@comcast.net" target="_blank">joncarter60@comcast.net</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hey
guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's
article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or
judging question? Just let me know.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Jon
Carter<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Judging Committee
Chairman<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u><u></u></span> </p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:rgb(87,87,87);FONT-SIZE:7pt">Sent
via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE
smartphone<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div>
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