[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
John Gayer
jgghome at comcast.net
Tue Apr 8 18:37:49 AKDT 2014
Derek,
Where are you finding the information that the radii are allowed to be
of different sizes for this specific maneuver as you show in your diagram?
From the sporting code we have:
5B.8.4. LOOPS
A loop must have by definition, a constant radius, and must be performed
in the vertical plane
throughout. It is entered and exited by a well defined line which, for a
complete loop, is horizontal.
For a part-loop, however, such lines may be in any other plane of flight
as required by the
particular manoeuvre.
Loops and part-loops within one manoeuvre must have the same radius.
Each occurrence of a
slight difference in radius must downgrade the manoeuvre by 1 point,
while more severe deviations
may downgrade it by 2 or 3 points for each occurrence. The radius of the
first loop or part-loop,
determines the radii of subsequent loops or part-loops within one
manoeuvre.
In order to look at this maneuver as not requiring equal radii for all
part loops, I would say there has to be a specific statement exempting
this maneuver from 5B.8.4. I can't find such a statement, which doesn't
mean it doesn't exist. It does seem to be accepted, for example, that
the knife edge wingover in P15 will have equal radii throughout, even
though the plane of rotation is different.
John
On 4/8/2014 5:55 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>
> John,
>
> One always has to take into account the entry/exit lines... it's not
> defined on how long they are but that they must exist and if we take
> an entry and exit line length of 15 meters (for example) then the exit
> line of 15 meters starts when the ¾ loop is completed and hits the
> horizontal and the 15 meters entry line starts (obviously) 15 meters
> before the radius is started. If that's the case then a tight entry
> radius was done and a large loop at the top was done, then where would
> the center be for judging purposes? If done correctly, yes, I do
> agree that the center of the maneuver should be reasonably close to
> the top of the loop. One shouldn't look at this maneuver for a center
> that will be consistent for each pilot. The center will be different
> -- it is the mid-point between the start and end.
>
> In the example below -- the horizontal lines are identical in length
> but with a small (tight) entry radius and a large loop -- where is the
> center? Check out the next picture...
>
> Now look at this picture with the radii the same and with identical
> entry / exit line lengths... where is center?
>
> Hopefully this helps...
>
> -Derek
>
> *From:*nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *John
> Gayer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:43 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>
> Derek,
> The input radius of the first quarter loop is part of the maneuver and
> defines the radius of the 3/4 loop. If you initiate the 1/4 loop on
> the center pole, the center of the maneuver does not shift with radius
> size and is centered in the box. In other words,size doesn't matter.
> John
>
> On 4/8/2014 4:24 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>
> I don't think you can leave off the input radius because the input
> radius size will change where center is located.
>
> *From:*nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Jas S
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:15 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
>
> I've always enjoyed that pattern had definition (centers, box...)
> and that's why I don't fly IMAC but once a year if at that.
>
> If the start of the 9 is at the bottom 1/4 loop (minus entry line),
>
> and the end is at the end of the 3/4 loop (minus the exit line),
>
> and the bottom and top radii are equal (as are the entry and exit
> lines),
>
> wouldn't the center be the start of the bottom loop/middle of
> roll/top of 3/4 loop/finish of 3/4 loop?
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Daniel Underkofler
> <underdw at gmail.com <mailto:underdw at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thank you! My thoughts exactly
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 4:02 PM, John Gayer
> <jgghome at comcast.net <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Derek,
> "Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and
> unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion
> but not somewhere.
> The center you are describing would appear to be affected
> somehow by the entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per
> your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see that.
> This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single
> loop with a straight vertical line between the first
> quadrant and the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do
> not affect that basic shape. That places the center of the
> maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as
> it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would
> also be on the centerline and so would the return to level
> flight at the exit.
> As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow
> offset, I don't see that either. The entry line ends at
> the quarter loop pullup and exit line begins upon
> completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a
> vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
> It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center
> and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has
> the last word but he should be using a better word than
> "somewhere".
> John
>
> On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:
>
> Anthony,
>
> This shouldn't be confusing at all... the center of
> the maneuver is the middle point between the start and
> end of the maneuver. How much more simple can it
> get? The statement that the "middle should be
> somewhere in the ¾ loop portion" is correct --
> depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match
> the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical
> when the maneuver starts. That center portion will
> change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it
> differently.
>
> Your comment about "many outside the US" isn't
> accurate -- if they see it differently then they are
> incorrect. The clarification I got is straight from
> the F3 sub-committee chair...
>
> -Derek
>
> *From:*nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Anthony Romano
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>
> Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the
> Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center was
> described as "should be the middle of the
> maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the
> many outside the US see it that the loop is centered
> and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code show
> the upline being centered.
>
> A bit confusing,
>
> Anthony
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
> From: joncarter60 at comcast.net
> <mailto:joncarter60 at comcast.net>
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
>
> Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the
> group for last month's article so I thought I would
> ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging
> question? Just let me know.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jon Carter
>
> Judging Committee Chairman
>
> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
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>
> --
>
> Jason
> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>
>
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