[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Tue Apr 8 20:28:00 AKDT 2014

I never said they were allowed to be different.  I was giving an example of
an incorrectly flown maneuver.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:38 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Derek,
Where are you finding the information that the radii are allowed to be of
different sizes for this specific maneuver as you show in your diagram?

>From the sporting code we have:
5B.8.4. LOOPS 
A loop must have by definition, a constant radius, and must be performed in
the vertical plane 
throughout. It is entered and exited by a well defined line which, for a
complete loop, is horizontal. 
For a part-loop, however, such lines may be in any other plane of flight as
required by the 
particular manoeuvre. 
Loops and part-loops within one manoeuvre must have the same radius. Each
occurrence of a 
slight difference in radius must downgrade the manoeuvre by 1 point, while
more severe deviations 
may downgrade it by 2 or 3 points for each occurrence. The radius of the
first loop or part-loop, 
determines the radii of subsequent loops or part-loops within one manoeuvre.

In order to look at this maneuver as not requiring equal radii for all part
loops, I would say there has to be a specific statement exempting this
maneuver from 5B.8.4. I can't find such a statement, which doesn't mean it
doesn't exist. It does seem to be accepted, for example, that the knife edge
wingover in P15 will have equal radii throughout, even though the plane of
rotation is different.
John

On 4/8/2014 5:55 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

John,

One always has to take into account the entry/exit lines
 it’s not defined
on how long they are but that they must exist and if we take an entry and
exit line length of 15 meters (for example) then the exit line of 15 meters
starts when the ¾ loop is completed and hits the horizontal and the 15
meters entry line starts (obviously) 15 meters before the radius is started.
If that’s the case then a tight entry radius was done and a large loop at
the top was done, then where would the center be for judging purposes?  If
done correctly, yes, I do agree that the center of the maneuver should be
reasonably close to the top of the loop.  One shouldn’t look at this
maneuver for a center that will be consistent for each pilot.  The center
will be different – it is the mid-point between the start and end.

In the example below – the horizontal lines are identical in length but with
a small (tight) entry radius and a large loop – where is the center?  Check
out the next picture

Now look at this picture with the radii the same and with identical entry /
exit line lengths
  where is center?

Hopefully this helps

-Derek

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:43 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Derek,
The input radius of the first quarter loop is part of the maneuver and
defines the radius of the 3/4 loop. If you initiate the 1/4 loop on the
center pole, the center of the maneuver does not shift with radius size and
is centered in the box. In other words,size doesn't matter.
John

On 4/8/2014 4:24 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

I don’t think you can leave off the input radius because the input radius
size will change where center is located.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas S
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:15 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

I've always enjoyed that pattern had definition (centers, box...) and that's
why I don't fly IMAC but once a year if at that. 

If the start of the 9 is at the bottom 1/4 loop (minus entry line),

and the end is at the end of the 3/4 loop (minus the exit line),

and the bottom and top radii are equal (as are the entry and exit lines),

wouldn't the center be the start of the bottom loop/middle of roll/top of
3/4 loop/finish of 3/4 loop?

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Daniel Underkofler <underdw at gmail.com
<mailto:underdw at gmail.com> > wrote:

Thank you!  My thoughts exactly

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 4:02 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net
<mailto:jgghome at comcast.net> > wrote:

Derek,
"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I
could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the
entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March
K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a
single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the
last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That
places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop
just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be
on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see
that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line
begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a
vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is
certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should
be using a better word than "somewhere".
John

On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

Anthony,

This shouldn’t be confusing at all
 the center of the maneuver is the middle
point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can
it get?   The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop
portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match
the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver
starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will
fly it differently.

Your comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it
differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight
from the F3 sub-committee chair

-Derek

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony
Romano
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the
March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the
maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see
it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code
show the upline being centered.

A bit confusing,

Anthony

  _____  

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
From: joncarter60 at comcast.net <mailto:joncarter60 at comcast.net> 
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's
article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or
judging question? Just let me know.

Thanks,

Jon Carter

Judging Committee Chairman

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

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-- 

Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/

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