[NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

Ronald Van Putte vanputter at gmail.com
Wed Mar 13 14:47:43 AKDT 2013 

I wonder if I could enter the F3A "P" part of the event and fly the Master class maneuver schedule.  That way, I could say I flew in the F3A Team Selection Finals, the U.S. team could benefit with some $$ and the judges could get a chuckle.

Ron Van Putte

On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:42 PM, <shinden1 at cox.net> wrote:

> For, participation in the team program,
> We could have a Pro Am setup the guys who want to fly in the team trials could enter the program under the Am, side.
> The contest on the second tier guys could pay a slightly reduced entry to fly in the event. and only fly P.
> But would get a first through Third "Nice Certificate", And recognition for the effort (no cost involved) Other than a loss in the judging pool.
> 
> This would allow more competitors to compete at the Higher level without having a unknown or Finals pattern to learn and practice 
> I think we would have more guys testing out there skills against the top fliers without the extreme effort to fly in a fai class event.
> It would also thin out the Masters class a little.
> I think FAI is steady pulling away from AMA style flying and we are loosing interests in fAI because of the dedication to compete at that level.
> 
> 
> Just a thought 
> 
> Bryan
> ---- "Atwood wrote: 
>> I don't think the FAI stamp program is what we want. I just got my stamp through Colleen as it is required for the world champs. None of that money days with the AMA. It all gets passed through to FAI.
>> 
>> I really think what we are looking for is a donation box on our renewal form to contribute to the FAI team fund And or a fund to help participate in the CIAM meeting.
>> 
>> Participation in this team trials tournament is a different issue which we also need to increase. That could simply means lowering the price substantially since it's no longer a separate event and requiring anybody who wants to participate in the semifinals to Sign up and pay the extra fee.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my average intelligence  phone
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:02 PM, "Jon Lowe" <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone can get the stamp.  I'm checking on where the money goes.  It will probably be tomorrow before I know since AMA is closed for the day.
>> 
>> If you want a stamp, call Colleen Pierce at AMA, and she can take credit cards, or you can send a check to AMA to her attention.
>> Jon
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>> Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2013 4:45 pm
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>> 
>> 
>> Does one have to fly in FAI to buy an FAI stamp which I would do if I knew
>> the money was going exclusively to the US F3A team.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of Michael S.
>> Harrison
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:23 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>> 
>> Absolutely, these funds would require accountability and clarity. It would
>> be best for the funds to be maintained by the SIG in an Ama account.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:57 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>> 
>> +1 from me.  I could easily see requiring an FAI stamp to fly FAI at
>> +local
>> contests.  It would indeed go a long way toward helping us demonstrate
>> participation, though I think we need to see where that money goes..
>> 
>> 
>> Mark Atwood
>> Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
>> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502
>> Fax: 440.684.3102
>> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com?>>  |
>> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "Michael S. Harrison"
>> <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net><mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net?>>> wrote:
>> 
>> My thoughts on this would be to make this the responsibility of the USA/FAI
>> community.  It would probably require the blessing of AMA but  a way to do
>> this is to require the FAI stamp to fly any AMA sanctioned competition with
>> FAI as one of the events.  At the Nats require a $50 fee to fly semis and
>> beyond.  Typically, anyone that flies well enough to make the semis is a
>> committed competitor and is willing and typically understands the need to
>> charge for the privilege of flying at that level.  This would also resolve
>> the issue of number of flyers committed to the FAI program.
>> 
>> Understandably, because AMA is overwhelmed by non competition hobbyists and
>> FAI really doesn't earnestly seek our input and the USA spends far more than
>> anyone else to support FAI, the powers at AMA have little interest is paying
>> big bucks for F3A, particularly since the competitors will not support its
>> own program.  It is sad that many competitors that have more than enough
>> money will make no real effort or even avoid the chance to help in some way.
>> Therefore, the typical solution would be to make financial needs be met by
>> fees of some sort.
>> 
>> If I were a non FAI competitor, and I was at one time, I would be more than
>> happy to see NSRCA support the FAI program.
>> 
>> In my view it is an across the board issue.
>> 
>> regards
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> From:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?>
>> ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>>
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l?>
>> ists.nsrca.org<http://ists.nsrca.org>>] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:58 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>> 
>> Or just charge the lower class guys more and tell them "Its for your own
>> good" . . .
>> 
>> From: Joe Lachowski<mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com<mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com?>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:29 PM
>> To: NSRCA Discussion List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>> 
>> Hmmm!. Sounds like another justification for going totally webbased for the
>> Kfactor. Surely, the mailing saved could cover all or part of the cost?
>> 
>>> From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com><mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com?>>
>>> To:
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>
>>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:02:49 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>>> 
>>> Correct, it's $50.
>>> 
>>> But we're making this more than it needs to be. We're talking about
>> $1000/annually that's needed to send a rep to the CIAM meetings. With our
>> membership that's less than a $1 a person. This should almost be part of our
>> charter. I realize that AMA pattern has a life outside of FAI, but AMA
>> Pattern was born from FAI (not the other way around) and will truly lose
>> it's direction without it. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
>>> 
>>> Participation in the FAI program is necessary to continue to get AMA
>> funding to help support our USA team.something that I do think the AMA
>> should, and will continue to do provided that there is adequate support.
>> It's almost a separate issue.
>>> 
>>> -M
>>> Mark Atwood
>>> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
>>> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>>> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
>>> Fax: 440.684.3102
>>> 
>> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark?>.
>> atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwood at paragon-inc.com>> |
>> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:25 AM, Jon Lowe
>> <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com?>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The current cost of the FAI stamp is $50. Just call Colleen Pierce at
>>> AMA
>> and she will sign you up!!
>>> Jon
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jon Lowe
>> <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com?>>>
>>> To: nsrca-discussion
>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m?>
>> ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
>>> Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2013 9:18 am
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>>> 
>>> John,
>>> The last F3A team trial cost $170 per flier which I beleive was over
>>> and
>> above Nats entry. The number of pilots that sign up for the trial is what
>> AMA uses as part of the formula to see what teams they will support for
>> World Championships. They also use performance at previous WC's in the
>> formula. Mark Atwood has the details. I beleive Mark told me that if Andrew
>> had not made the podium at the last WC, that we would have fallen below the
>> threshold for AMA support for this year's WC.
>>> 
>>> I will check with AMA on the cost of the FAI stamp.
>>> Jon
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: John Fuqua
>> <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua@<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua@?>
>> embarqmail.com<http://embarqmail.com>>>
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m?>
>> ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
>>> Sent: Tue, Mar 12, 2013 8:42 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>>> 
>>> 
>>> If it's a numbers thing what if everybody just paid the for an FAI stamp.
>> I
>>> used to buy one long ago when I flew in Team selection events. I do
>>> not think it is very expensive. Anybody know what it the currently costs?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?>
>> ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>>
>>> 
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l?>
>> ists.nsrca.org<http://ists.nsrca.org>><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discu<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discu?>
>> ssion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:ssion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>>?>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:12 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
>>> 
>>> We can run off and vilify the AMA over this, but I think some of the
>> reality
>>> is that there are soooooo many niche's in the FAI program that trying
>>> to determine how to completely support them all is financially
>>> impractical in this day and age. Yes, we're one of the pillars, but
>>> our total participation at the FAI level is actually VERY low. I think
>>> a total of 10 people this past cycle. That in itself is a problem, but
>>> regardless, it become difficult for the AMA to support sending a rep
>>> for every FAI
>> program
>>> that has 10 paying participants. I just checked.. .we had 11
>>> participants in 2012 and 11 in 2010. Control line scale had about the
>> same.
>>> 
>>> We should strongly consider trying to work this into the NSRCA budget
>>> in some way. It's important to us collectively, regardless of the
>>> total
>> number
>>> that actually pay for an FAI stamp. They lead the program that we
>>> follow, and establish all the rules for our international
>>> competitions. It's important that we (the NSRCA) have a voice at the
>> table.
>>> 
>>> Just my $0.02
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark Atwood
>>> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
>>> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>>> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
>>> Fax: 440.684.3102
>>> 
>> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark?>.
>> atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwood at paragon-inc.com>><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-in<mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-in?>
>> c.com<http://c.com>><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-inc.com?>>?>> |
>>> 
>> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Derek Koopowitz
>>> 
>> <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo?>
>> witz at gmail.com<mailto:witz at gmail.com>><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der?>
>> ekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:ekkoopowitz at gmail.com><http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Airfare alone is about $1100 and then there is food/accommodations for
>>> 3 nights, train fare from Zurich to Lausanne and back... I would
>>> estimate at least another $800 everything else.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Peter Vogel
>>> 
>> <vogel.peter at gmail.com<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmai<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmai?>
>> l.com<http://l.com>><mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gma<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gma?>
>> il.com<http://il.com><http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
>>> How much would you need?
>>> 
>>> And Ron, I think that's exactly what it is. It's part of why I voted
>>> against Bob Brown, he said as much in his campaign statement...
>>> 
>>> Peter+
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Derek Koopowitz
>>> 
>> <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo?>
>> witz at gmail.com<mailto:witz at gmail.com>><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der?>
>> ekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:ekkoopowitz at gmail.com><http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
>>> That is true, Bill. I was sent a letter by the AMA stating that travel
>>> expenses would not be paid for and that I could attend if I paid for
>> myself
>>> or the NSRCA paid for me to attend.
>>> 
>>> I can only believe that this will only further isolate us (F3A) from
>>> the rest of the world. Yes, I'm still the rep to CIAM but face-to-face
>> meetings
>>> accomplish so much more than through email. I had built up a great
>>> relationship with the movers/shakers in F3A and now I feel that it
>>> will be in jeopardy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Bill's Email
>>> 
>> <silentav8r at cox.net<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><ma<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><ma?>
>> ilto:silentav8r at cox.net<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><http://cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net<http://cox
>> .net>?>>> wrote:
>>> Thought you folks might be interested what is going on in the soaring
>>> side of the FAI world. A proposal to condense several events, soaring
>>> being one of them, has been submitted. The soaring community in the US
>>> is taking notice that AMA is not funding the individual area reps to
>>> go to the meeting, so the soaring folks have decided to try to fund it
>> themselves.
>>> Here's the thread:
>>> 
>>> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24403409&postcount=1
>>> 
>>> This is the document that has gotten them to do this:
>>> 
>>> 
>> http://lomcovak.cz/wp_eng/f3b/2013/03/f3b-world-championship-in-future-cance
>>> led/
>>> 
>>> F3A is mentioned, but only in that it should remain as is. F3M is
>>> talked about as a target for elimination. Again, this is a proposal
>>> submitted for consideration.
>>> 
>>> Thought you might find it interesting. I recall reading that our US
>>> F3A
>> CIAM
>>> rep was also told by AMA that they would not fund his travel.
>>> 
>>> Bill in OC
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o?>
>> rg<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or?>
>> g<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>?>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o?>
>> rg<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or?>
>> g<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>?>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>> [http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg]
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o?>
>> rg<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or?>
>> g<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>?>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.o?>
>> rg<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.or?>
>> g<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>?>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> 
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><ma?>
>> ilto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> 
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