[NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation

shinden1 at cox.net shinden1 at cox.net
Wed Mar 13 14:43:03 AKDT 2013 

For, participation in the team program,
We could have a Pro Am setup the guys who want to fly in the team trials could enter the program under the Am, side.
The contest on the second tier guys could pay a slightly reduced entry to fly in the event. and only fly P.
But would get a first through Third "Nice Certificate", And recognition for the effort (no cost involved) Other than a loss in the judging pool.

This would allow more competitors to compete at the Higher level without having a unknown or Finals pattern to learn and practice 
I think we would have more guys testing out there skills against the top fliers without the extreme effort to fly in a fai class event.
It would also thin out the Masters class a little.
I think FAI is steady pulling away from AMA style flying and we are loosing interests in fAI because of the dedication to compete at that level.


Just a thought 

Bryan
---- "Atwood wrote: 
> I don't think the FAI stamp program is what we want. I just got my stamp through Colleen as it is required for the world champs. None of that money days with the AMA. It all gets passed through to FAI.
> 
> I really think what we are looking for is a donation box on our renewal form to contribute to the FAI team fund And or a fund to help participate in the CIAM meeting.
> 
> Participation in this team trials tournament is a different issue which we also need to increase. That could simply means lowering the price substantially since it's no longer a separate event and requiring anybody who wants to participate in the semifinals to Sign up and pay the extra fee.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my average intelligence  phone
> 
> 
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:02 PM, "Jon Lowe" <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com>> wrote:
> 
> Anyone can get the stamp.  I'm checking on where the money goes.  It will probably be tomorrow before I know since AMA is closed for the day.
> 
> If you want a stamp, call Colleen Pierce at AMA, and she can take credit cards, or you can send a check to AMA to her attention.
> Jon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>>
> To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2013 4:45 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> 
> 
> Does one have to fly in FAI to buy an FAI stamp which I would do if I knew
> the money was going exclusively to the US F3A team.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of Michael S.
> Harrison
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:23 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> 
> Absolutely, these funds would require accountability and clarity. It would
> be best for the funds to be maintained by the SIG in an Ama account.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:57 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> 
> +1 from me.  I could easily see requiring an FAI stamp to fly FAI at
> +local
> contests.  It would indeed go a long way toward helping us demonstrate
> participation, though I think we need to see where that money goes..
> 
> 
> Mark Atwood
> Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502
> Fax: 440.684.3102
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com?>>  |
> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "Michael S. Harrison"
> <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net><mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net?>>> wrote:
> 
> My thoughts on this would be to make this the responsibility of the USA/FAI
> community.  It would probably require the blessing of AMA but  a way to do
> this is to require the FAI stamp to fly any AMA sanctioned competition with
> FAI as one of the events.  At the Nats require a $50 fee to fly semis and
> beyond.  Typically, anyone that flies well enough to make the semis is a
> committed competitor and is willing and typically understands the need to
> charge for the privilege of flying at that level.  This would also resolve
> the issue of number of flyers committed to the FAI program.
> 
> Understandably, because AMA is overwhelmed by non competition hobbyists and
> FAI really doesn't earnestly seek our input and the USA spends far more than
> anyone else to support FAI, the powers at AMA have little interest is paying
> big bucks for F3A, particularly since the competitors will not support its
> own program.  It is sad that many competitors that have more than enough
> money will make no real effort or even avoid the chance to help in some way.
> Therefore, the typical solution would be to make financial needs be met by
> fees of some sort.
> 
> If I were a non FAI competitor, and I was at one time, I would be more than
> happy to see NSRCA support the FAI program.
> 
> In my view it is an across the board issue.
> 
> regards
> 
> Mike
> 
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?>
> ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l?>
> ists.nsrca.org<http://ists.nsrca.org>>] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:58 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> 
> Or just charge the lower class guys more and tell them "Its for your own
> good" . . .
> 
> From: Joe Lachowski<mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com<mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com?>>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:29 PM
> To: NSRCA Discussion List<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> 
> Hmmm!. Sounds like another justification for going totally webbased for the
> Kfactor. Surely, the mailing saved could cover all or part of the cost?
> 
> > From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com><mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com?>>
> > To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?>>
> > Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:02:49 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> > Correct, it's $50.
> >
> > But we're making this more than it needs to be. We're talking about
> $1000/annually that's needed to send a rep to the CIAM meetings. With our
> membership that's less than a $1 a person. This should almost be part of our
> charter. I realize that AMA pattern has a life outside of FAI, but AMA
> Pattern was born from FAI (not the other way around) and will truly lose
> it's direction without it. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
> >
> > Participation in the FAI program is necessary to continue to get AMA
> funding to help support our USA team.something that I do think the AMA
> should, and will continue to do provided that there is adequate support.
> It's almost a separate issue.
> >
> > -M
> > Mark Atwood
> > Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> > 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> > Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
> > Fax: 440.684.3102
> >
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark?>.
> atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwood at paragon-inc.com>> |
> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:25 AM, Jon Lowe
> <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com?>>> wrote:
> >
> > The current cost of the FAI stamp is $50. Just call Colleen Pierce at
> > AMA
> and she will sign you up!!
> > Jon
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jon Lowe
> <jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com<mailto:jonlowe at aol.com><mailto:jonlowe at aol.com?>>>
> > To: nsrca-discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m?>
> ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
> > Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2013 9:18 am
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> > John,
> > The last F3A team trial cost $170 per flier which I beleive was over
> > and
> above Nats entry. The number of pilots that sign up for the trial is what
> AMA uses as part of the formula to see what teams they will support for
> World Championships. They also use performance at previous WC's in the
> formula. Mark Atwood has the details. I beleive Mark told me that if Andrew
> had not made the podium at the last WC, that we would have fallen below the
> threshold for AMA support for this year's WC.
> >
> > I will check with AMA on the cost of the FAI stamp.
> > Jon
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Fuqua
> <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua@<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com><mailto:johnfuqua@?>
> embarqmail.com<http://embarqmail.com>>>
> > To: 'General pattern discussion'
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><m?>
> ailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
> > Sent: Tue, Mar 12, 2013 8:42 pm
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> >
> > If it's a numbers thing what if everybody just paid the for an FAI stamp.
> I
> > used to buy one long ago when I flew in Team selection events. I do
> > not think it is very expensive. Anybody know what it the currently costs?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?>
> ts.nsrca.org<http://ts.nsrca.org>><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?>>
> >
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discussion-bounces at l?>
> ists.nsrca.org<http://ists.nsrca.org>><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discu<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:discu?>
> ssion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:ssion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>>?>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:12 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] CIAM Meeting Representation
> >
> > We can run off and vilify the AMA over this, but I think some of the
> reality
> > is that there are soooooo many niche's in the FAI program that trying
> > to determine how to completely support them all is financially
> > impractical in this day and age. Yes, we're one of the pillars, but
> > our total participation at the FAI level is actually VERY low. I think
> > a total of 10 people this past cycle. That in itself is a problem, but
> > regardless, it become difficult for the AMA to support sending a rep
> > for every FAI
> program
> > that has 10 paying participants. I just checked.. .we had 11
> > participants in 2012 and 11 in 2010. Control line scale had about the
> same.
> >
> > We should strongly consider trying to work this into the NSRCA budget
> > in some way. It's important to us collectively, regardless of the
> > total
> number
> > that actually pay for an FAI stamp. They lead the program that we
> > follow, and establish all the rules for our international
> > competitions. It's important that we (the NSRCA) have a voice at the
> table.
> >
> > Just my $0.02
> >
> >
> > Mark Atwood
> > Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President
> > 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
> > Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Direct: 440-229-2502
> > Fax: 440.684.3102
> >
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark?>.
> atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwood at paragon-inc.com>><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-in<mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-in?>
> c.com<http://c.com>><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com<http://paragon-inc.com?>>?>> |
> >
> www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com><http://www.paragon-inc.com/>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:55 PM, Derek Koopowitz
> >
> <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo?>
> witz at gmail.com<mailto:witz at gmail.com>><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der?>
> ekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:ekkoopowitz at gmail.com><http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
> >
> > Airfare alone is about $1100 and then there is food/accommodations for
> > 3 nights, train fare from Zurich to Lausanne and back... I would
> > estimate at least another $800 everything else.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Peter Vogel
> >
> <vogel.peter at gmail.com<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmai<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gmai?>
> l.com<http://l.com>><mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gma<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:vogel.peter at gma?>
> il.com<http://il.com><http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
> > How much would you need?
> >
> > And Ron, I think that's exactly what it is. It's part of why I voted
> > against Bob Brown, he said as much in his campaign statement...
> >
> > Peter+
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Derek Koopowitz
> >
> <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com><mailto:derekkoopo?>
> witz at gmail.com<mailto:witz at gmail.com>><mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<http://gmail.com><mailto:der?>
> ekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:ekkoopowitz at gmail.com><http://gmail.com>?>>> wrote:
> > That is true, Bill. I was sent a letter by the AMA stating that travel
> > expenses would not be paid for and that I could attend if I paid for
> myself
> > or the NSRCA paid for me to attend.
> >
> > I can only believe that this will only further isolate us (F3A) from
> > the rest of the world. Yes, I'm still the rep to CIAM but face-to-face
> meetings
> > accomplish so much more than through email. I had built up a great
> > relationship with the movers/shakers in F3A and now I feel that it
> > will be in jeopardy.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Bill's Email
> >
> <silentav8r at cox.net<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><ma<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><ma?>
> ilto:silentav8r at cox.net<mailto:silentav8r at cox.net><http://cox.net><mailto:silentav8r at cox.net<http://cox
> .net>?>>> wrote:
> > Thought you folks might be interested what is going on in the soaring
> > side of the FAI world. A proposal to condense several events, soaring
> > being one of them, has been submitted. The soaring community in the US
> > is taking notice that AMA is not funding the individual area reps to
> > go to the meeting, so the soaring folks have decided to try to fund it
> themselves.
> > Here's the thread:
> >
> > http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24403409&postcount=1
> >
> > This is the document that has gotten them to do this:
> >
> >
> http://lomcovak.cz/wp_eng/f3b/2013/03/f3b-world-championship-in-future-cance
> > led/
> >
> > F3A is mentioned, but only in that it should remain as is. F3M is
> > talked about as a target for elimination. Again, this is a proposal
> > submitted for consideration.
> >
> > Thought you might find it interesting. I recall reading that our US
> > F3A
> CIAM
> > rep was also told by AMA that they would not fund his travel.
> >
> > Bill in OC
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >
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> >
> > --
> > Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> > Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> > [http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg]
> >
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