[NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates

Fri Mar 1 08:34:06 AKST 2013

John,

Just my opinion -

I believe there needs to be a distinction between US Team Trials and US
NATs.  Foreign competitors should not be competing in the US Team Trials.

I believe there is also a distinction between a country looking to break
into the top 10, versus one that is top ten.

While I agree that competing with a top pilot is the best way to see their
level and style, for the US (top ten), I don't think it is a good thing to
have a published result that includes a foreign pilot besting the US
Team..it sets tone and precedence..and could put the US Team in a position
of being an underdog, competing from behind.  Granted, if judging at the WC
was based solely on flight performance, this aspect would have little if any
relevance.  My suggested format for NATs/Trials does not preclude foreign
competitors, only limits them (from flying unknowns) in Team Trial years.
We (the US) are in the top ten, and in this day and age of internet and
video, we know what top ten flying looks like, and quite honestly, I don't
think it is inappropriate to suggest we should have the goals of setting the
bar/style.  Recruiting a European or Asian judge to judge the NATs; great
idea. 

For a country outside the top ten, it makes all the sense in the world to
import top ten talent (pilots or judges) for exactly the reasons you
state..and many countries have done this, either by importing pilots/judges,
or by travelling to the US NATs or EC.  For countries outside the top 10,
there is nothing to be lost, only gained, by mixing it up with top ten
talent.

Regards,

Dave L

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:45 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates

Dave,
Why is it bad if a foreign competitor comes to our Nats and beats one or all
of our team members? We are somewhat isolated over here and do not get to
see many of the top world competitors. It would do the team good to find out
where the bar is and how much improvement is required to excel at the
worlds. I believe the team would consider being beaten at the trials as a
challenge to improve and not a demoralizing influence.
The Australians used to pay airfare for top foreign competitors to come down
under and compete in the Kraft Masters(International meet)  for the sole
purpose of finding out where the bar was and what top ten flying looked
like. Rather than exclude foreign influences at the team trials, it would be
a much better plan to invite(pay) a European judge or two to come over to
judge the finals. That would give a good reference for the team to use in
preparation. 
John

On 2/27/2013 5:47 PM, Dave Lockhart wrote:

Resistance to the combining of the two was for many reasons.many of which
are moot now that the NATs and Team Trials are combined.

I've said it a million times, and offered the suggestion just as many times.
It absolutely would be bad for a foreign competitor to best a US Team Member
at the US Team Trials.  The answer is simple enough, IMHO.  In Team Trial
years, the NATs are over after the semifinals (4 rounds of P, 2 rounds of
F), and the Team Trials will continue with 2F and 2 Unknown to pick the US
Team Members.

Regards,

Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van
Putte
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:26 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates

The irony here is that we tried to have a joint Nats/Team Selection much
earlier and there was significant resistance to doing it.  Comments were
made that "Foreign competitors can compete in the Nats and might beat one or
more of the USA F3A team members and that would be bad".

Ron

On Feb 27, 2013, at 6:11 PM, Jon Lowe wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the last separate team selection we
had was at Triple Tree in SC just after the turn of the century.  I know of
nothing that prevents us from having a separate team trial, but that would
involve yet another contest to organize, and more cost.  Frankly, I
personally prefer having the team trials at the Nats, because we get all of
the top FAI fliers to attend at least once every two years.  Given the
proximity of this years Nats to the dates of this years WC, we will likely
not see our team members at the Nats, and they will be missed.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates

I remember being CD of the F3A Team Selection contest back in 1991 at Duke
Field 
(part of Eglin AFB, FL).  There were 54 F3A competitors.  

It was the last time Rhett Miller competed in an F3A Team Selection.  He
used an 
airplane borrowed from Ron Chidgey.

Ron

On Feb 27, 2013, at 5:34 PM, Dave Burton wrote:

> I seem to remember back a lot of years ago the FAI Team Selection stamp
fee
> was $10.00 and lots of guys (myself included) paid it just to be part of
> helping. At $170.00 I wouldn't pay it. I could be wrong about the amount,
> and the pool of FAI flyers is much smaller so perhaps there wouldn't be
muh
> money generater if it was significantly lower.
> Dave 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of Atwood,
Mark
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:26 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
> 
> Hey Keith,
> 
> I appreciate the comment actually as I sort of feel the same way.  I've
made
> sure that EVERYONE on the team is working actively in the fund raising
> (Trading effort and labor for money) and at the end, all will very likely
> still be paying for a portion of their trip.   Talking with Jason and
> Andrew, each WC has cost them $3000-$5000 out of pocket to go, over and
> above what was donated.    We're working hard to reduce that number but
it's
> a reality.
> 
> And your correct, no one should expect a free trip.  We're just working to
> help these guys represent us in our chosen hobby as the best we have.  
> 
> Support is appreciated.not expected.  
> 
> Mark Atwood
> Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 
> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502 
> Fax: 440.684.3102
> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 27, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Keith Hoard <klhoard at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What makes you think that us lower class guys care to "support" the FAI
> team?  Some of you make it sound like we owe y'all a free trip.
> 
> Keith Hoard
> Collierville, TN
> 
> On Feb 27, 2013, at 16:28, "Chuck Hochhalter" <cahochhalter at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> We could add 5 bucks to every local contest entry and donate that to FAI.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 4:25 PM, Archie Stafford <astafford at md.metrocast.net>
> wrote:
>> 
>>> Mark,
>>> 
>>> Another option is to adjust the entry fee for all classes. Maybe 25.00
> per and all of that goes to the team. Would be easy enough to do.
>>> 
>>> Arch
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy ST III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
>>> Date:
>>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As a side to that.
>>> 
>>> We need to have a serious discussion about the team selection and our
> "Official" participation levels.  FAI GUYS!!!!  We NEED many more of you
to
> sign up for the team selection event (be it part of the Nats or otherwise
in
> 2014) if we're going to continue to get the same level of funding that we
> get now from the AMA.   To do that, I think we need to drastically lower
the
> price tag.  The price tag ($170) is reminiscent of holding a separate
event
> and paying for the judges to come for 4 days and judge.   That's no longer
> an expense burden that the selection contest bears.
>>> 
>>> The AMA has made "participation" a critical point factor in determining
> the level of financial support that each team receives.   We don't get a
lot
> of money, but they do pay for the World Championship entry fees ($900
> /pilot, $500 /team manager, $150 /caller ) which is a lot, and they help
> with some of the hotel bill.  It's a fraction of what we need, but it's
> still a big help.  For this year's WC's it's about $7800 of the $60K we'll
> need.  But if we don't increase our participation, we'll lose it.
>>> 
>>> This past Nats we had 30+ FAI flyers. but less than 10 participated in
> the team trial..meaning they paid the entry fee.  Admittedly, I was one
who
> did not.  I finished 11th, but that's a far cry from top 3, so spending
$170
> "Just to participate" didn't seem like a good value proposition.  But if
we
> can lower the cost to say $30, or something reasonable, then I would
> participate simply to support the team (that's where the entry fee money
> goes by the way.all of it) especially knowing that it will motivate the
AMA
> to continue their funding.
>>> 
>>> I'll hammer this home more next year when it's more relevant, but
thought
> I'd chime in now :)
>>> 
>>> Please feel free to return to your regularly scheduled conversation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark Atwood
>>> Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
>>> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>>> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502
>>> Fax: 440.684.3102
>>> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com
<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com?> >  |
> www.paragon-inc.com
<http://www.paragon-inc.com%3chttp:/www.paragon-inc.com/>
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Budd Engineering
> <jerry at buddengineering.com<mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com
<mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com?> >> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Or a LOT easier because it's gotten so small.  It's occurred to some of
> us over the past several years that you could hold the US Team Trials at a
> good local field and still have an as good, if not better, team selection
> contest as we do now.
>>> 
>>> Incidentally, when I mentioned this to a couple of the AMA people at the
> show in Ontario last month it was made quite clear that the "powers that
be"
> in AMA have absolutely no interest in allowing the Team Selection contest
to
> ever be held anywhere but at the AMA site in Muncie.  Go Figure.
>>> 
>>> -0
>>> 
>>> Jerry
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 10:59 AM, "Dave Burton"
> <burtona at atmc.net<mailto:burtona at atmc.net <mailto:burtona at atmc.net?> >>
wrote:
>>> 
>>> Amen +2
>>> 
>>> As pattern participation continues to shrink the possibility of having
> the resources to hold the Nats at a different venue gets even more
> difficult.
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> From:
>
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?> 
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of
> John Fuqua
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:54 AM
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> 
>>> AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>> 
>>> From:
>
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?> 
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:43 AM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> 
>>> +1
>>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "mike mueller" <mups1953 at yahoo.com<mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com
<mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com?> >>
>>> To: "Archie Stafford"
> <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net
<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net?> >>, "General
> pattern discussion"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?> >>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:36:31 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> OK I want to play devil's advocate.
>>> What is all this talk about an off site Nats about?
>>> Is it that we need to move it around to allow new people to participate?
> Or is it the changes to the schedule that basically takes away a half day
of
> practice?
>>> In my opinion it's not that big of a deal. Moving the Nats off site
would
> be a huge endeavor. Who has the resources, energy and financial where with
> all to achieve this?
>>> I doubt that we could pull it off. Unless a lot of effort was put forth
> to make it happen.
>>> I think the AMA has supported us in a decent manner.
>>> Also look at the current BOD of the AMA and you'll see that pattern is
> well represented with more than our share. We also have Muncie employess
who
> are pattern fliers. We have friends in high places and I think we're doing
> pretty well.
>>> I'm luck enough to go to the Muncie facility for 3 contests every year.
> I'm amazed at the support we get from the AMA staff every time we go
there.
>>> Things could be a lot worse. Thanks, Mike Mueller
>>> 
>>> --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Archie Stafford
> <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net
<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net?> >> wrote:
>>> 
>>> From: Archie Stafford
> <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net
<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net?> >>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?> >
>>> Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 8:44 PM
>>> IMAC has been warned. They already lost one day from a few years ago.
>>> 
>>> Also, years ago I would've agreed. Today though the AMA has a lot more
> park flyers and sport flyers than any other discipline . Most of my club,
> with 86 members now flies smaller electrics. Many of the younger kids
would
> rather fly foamies than anything. Pattern, IMAC, and scale don't do
anything
> for them. The younger members are just different. 3D and helis are much
more
> exciting to them. Times have changed.
>>> 
>>> Arch
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy ST III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com
<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com?> >>
>>> Date:
>>> To: vicenterc at comcast.net,'General<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net,'General
<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net,> >
> pattern discussion'
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org?> >>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> 
>>> What about IMAC they have less attendance at the NATS than us.  With
> their attendance I'm surprised the AMA will even give them a week.  Not
that
> I'm suggesting they don't deserve a week.  One of the issues I have with
the
> NATS is that Intermediate and Advanced Pilots and those in MASTERS and FAI
> that don't make the cut don't get any more flights than a regular weekend
> contest.  Perhaps more would attend if we offered every pilot 12
guaranteed
> flights.  That would make it more likely that the west coasters would make
> the long trip to Muncie.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> No one gets hooked on RC by watching someone fly a park flyer.  You get
> hooked by watching someone go crazy with a heli or an IMAC plane or the
> graceful flying of a pattern plane or the speed/wow factor of a jet or the
> roar of a 4 engine B-17.  These are all endeavors that are not associated
> with the typical AMA member.  If the AMA thinks they can survive without
> these folks then let them try.  What these groups need to do is stop
> supporting the AMA with their articles, photos, etc.  They'll have nothing
> to draw the attention of new members.  AMA membership will never be what
it
> used to be because kids now a day are so much busier than they used to be
> and there are so many more thinks competing for their interest.  We need
to
> find a financially viable solution for both the NSRCA and the AMA not to
> mention all the other SIGS. Without the SIGS there would be no AMA.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From:
>
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis?> 
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of
> vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net
<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net?> >
>>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:20 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Guys it is too early in the week to talk about good drinks.  I got to
> work tomorrow.
>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ronald Van Putte
>
<vanputter at gmail.com<http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vanputter
> @gmail.com>>
>>> Sender:
>
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/
> compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:57:02
>>> To: General pattern
>
discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/
> mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> Reply-To: General pattern discussion
>
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose
> ?to=nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>> 
>>> For those who weren't there, we had several buses take us from the
> Tullahoma airport about 12 miles to the Jack Daniels' distillery for the
> "picnic".  On the way back, there was a terrible thunderstorm.  When I
> mentioned the storm to some attendee the next day, they said, "What
> thunderstorm?"
>>> 
>>> BTW, what did they call that stuff they served?  Was it Lynchburg
> Lemonade?  It tasted wonderful and went down so smooth!
>>> 
>>> Ron
>>> 
>>> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:48 PM, John Fuqua wrote:
>>> 
>>>> At least that part you remember
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:
>
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/
> compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%3Chttp://us.mc1247.mail.yah
oo?> <http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo
> .com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of
> Ronald Van
>>>> Putte
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 4:47 PM
>>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>> 
>>>> The bus ride back from the Jack Daniel's distillery was memorable!
>>>> 
>>>> Ron
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Atwood, Mark wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Scott,  I think Ron is correct on this one (biting my tongue as I
voice
>>>> that!)   Back then the NSRCA had no input what so ever.  Obviously
> enough
>>>> was wrong with the way the AMA ran the event to create a complete
> boycott of
>>>> the nationals in lieu of the NPAC.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peter, has the nats every
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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