[NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty Idea
Charlie Barrera
charliebarrera at consolidated.net
Wed Aug 21 11:43:38 AKDT 2013
Lets face it. We can't have it both ways all of the time. This is a competitive sport. There are winners and losers. I've struggled with every class I've participated in and haven't given up. I'm here because I enjoy the competition and the commeroderie (-5 SP). It's always fun to see all my old friends at locals and the NATS. And we talk pattern. If we change to an Amnesty rule, then we should also consider giving participation trophys to all that compete.
Charlie Barrera
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 20, 2013, at 3:00 PM, nsrca-discussion-request at lists.nsrca.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Amnesty idea (Michael S. Harrison)
> 2. Re: World F3A contest (George Kennie)
> 3. Re: Amnesty idea (Dave Lockhart)
> 4. Re: World F3A contest (Keith Hoard)
> 5. Re: Amnesty idea (Dave Burton)
> 6. Re: World F3A contest (Dave Burton)
> 7. Re: Amnesty idea (Dave Lockhart)
> 8. Re: Amnesty idea (Richard Lewis)
> 9. Re: World F3A contest (Ron Hansen)
> 10. Re: World F3A contest (Robert L. Beaubien)
> 11. Re: World F3A contest (Ronald Van Putte)
> 12. Re: Amnesty idea (Scott McHarg)
> 13. Re: World F3A contest (Dave Burton)
> 14. Re: World F3A contest (seefo at san.rr.com)
> 15. Re: World F3A contest (seefo at san.rr.com)
> 16. Re: World F3A contest (Robert L. Beaubien)
> 17. Re: World F3A contest (seefo at san.rr.com)
> 18. Re: World F3A contest (seefo at san.rr.com)
> 19. Re: World F3A contest (Larry Diamond)
> 20. Re: Amnesty idea (Richard Lewis)
> 21. Re: World F3A contest (Robert Gainey)
> 22. Re: Amnesty idea (Ryan Smith)
> 23. Re: World F3A contest (Hnycmpsts)
> 24. Re: World F3A contest (Atwood, Mark)
> 25. Large 6-inch clear heatshrink tube source (P & A Hobbies)
> 26. Re: Large 6-inch clear heatshrink tube source (Bob Pastorello)
> 27. Re: World F3A contest (Scott Smith)
> 28. Re: Amnesty idea (Michael S. Harrison)
> 29. Re: World F3A contest (Michael S. Harrison)
> 30. Re: World F3A contest (Michael S. Harrison)
> 31. Re: World F3A contest (mike mueller)
> 32. Re: Large 6-inch clear heatshrink tube source
> (rcmaster199 at aol.com)
> 33. Re: World F3A contest (Derek Koopowitz)
> 34. WC Day 3 Prelim scores (Jon Lowe)
> 35. Re: WC Day 3 Prelim scores (Bob Pastorello)
> 36. Re: WC Day 3 Prelim scores (Larry Diamond)
> 37. Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Bob Kane)
> 38. Re: Amnesty idea (John Gayer)
> 39. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Bob Kane)
> 40. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Jim Quinn)
> 41. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Jim Quinn)
> 42. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Jim Quinn)
> 43. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (George Kennie)
> 44. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (mike mueller)
> 45. Re: Amnesty idea (Richard Lewis)
> 46. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Peter Vogel)
> 47. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Atwood, Mark)
> 48. Re: Amnesty idea (John Fuqua)
> 49. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (Jon Bruml)
> 50. Re: Amnesty idea (Scott McHarg)
> 51. Re: Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet (John Gayer)
> 52. Re: Amnesty idea (John Gayer)
> 53. Re: Amnesty idea (Dave Burton)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 15:33:58 -0500
> From: "Michael S. Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <000c01ce9d1b$6f9f1ee0$4edd5ca0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I'm not so sure that works, we have been putting peer pressure on Brett W.
> forever and he still flies FAI....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 2:25 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> Strongly agree.
>
> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
> that is sandbagging.
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
> comfortable with.
> Dave
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> mike mueller
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
> To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
> the sport.
> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
> have now?
>
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services
>
> F3aunlimited
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:07:11 -0400
> From: George Kennie <geobet4evr at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID:
> <CAOG==dVA=RTyb3xyHvJyxZqQvS8-vFqO0Q-nTW8=-S1N8YQPoA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of
> the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and
> it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in
> their scoring awards.
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's
> GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade
> him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do
> likewise"
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that
> I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and
> I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his
> face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so.
> CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding
> force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all
> around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission
> is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do
> that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but
> that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that
> my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw
> numbers
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been
> classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but
> could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
> G.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I
>> can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the
>> scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at
>> the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a
>> half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half
>> hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are
>> seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an
>> unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
>> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and
>> unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to
>> see the same criteria used at all contests.
>>
>> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>>
>> Stuart C.
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.**org <NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/**mailman/listinfo/nsrca-**discussion<http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:25:55 -0400
> From: "Dave Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <014801ce9d2b$13aafa90$3b00efb0$@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system causing?
> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they realize
> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would they
> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class? Is
> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to be
> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever been
> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not moved up
> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>
> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>
> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent commitment to
> the higher class.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> Strongly agree.
>
> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
> that is sandbagging.
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
> comfortable with.
> Dave
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> mike mueller
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
> To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
> the sport.
> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
> have now?
>
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services
>
> F3aunlimited
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:28:08 -0500
> From: Keith Hoard <klhoard at hotmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <BAY401-EAS42606F5E1F5FBD504996544B8420 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>>
>> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>>
>> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>>
>> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>>
>> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>>
>> G.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
>>> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>>>
>>> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>>>
>>> Stuart C.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:07:08 -0500
> From: "Dave Burton" <burtona at atmc.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <011e01ce9d30$d4e4f990$7eaeecb0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I'll turn the question around on you Dave, without providing any answers
> however.
> What purpose is served by the current points/advancement system?
> Dave B
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:26 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system causing?
> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they realize
> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would they
> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class? Is
> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to be
> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever been
> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not moved up
> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>
> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>
> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent commitment to
> the higher class.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> Strongly agree.
>
> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
> that is sandbagging.
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
> comfortable with.
> Dave
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> mike mueller
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
> To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
> the sport.
> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
> have now?
>
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services
>
> F3aunlimited
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3211/6587 - Release Date: 08/18/13
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:08:48 -0500
> From: "Dave Burton" <burtona at atmc.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <011f01ce9d31$10f4a570$32ddf050$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren?t very good.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
>
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
>
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
>
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
>
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130819/72f566d0/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 19:12:37 -0400
> From: "Dave Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <016201ce9d31$9986f500$cc94df00$@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> "While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure."
>
> Dave L
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:07 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I'll turn the question around on you Dave, without providing any answers
> however.
> What purpose is served by the current points/advancement system?
> Dave B
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:26 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system causing?
> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they realize
> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would they
> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class? Is
> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to be
> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever been
> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not moved up
> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>
> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>
> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent commitment to
> the higher class.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> Strongly agree.
>
> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
> that is sandbagging.
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
> comfortable with.
> Dave
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> mike mueller
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
> To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
> the sport.
> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
> have now?
>
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services
>
> F3aunlimited
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3211/6587 - Release Date: 08/18/13
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 18:37:08 -0500
> From: Richard Lewis <humptybump at sbcglobal.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <FF722B08-F574-4094-B323-75F249E0EE93 at sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I guess everyone has forgotten that the advancement rules were relegated to a mere suggestion in the last rules cycle and as such, pattern no longer has an advancement system.. Lol...
>
> Richard
> Sent from my mobile device.
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:12 PM, "Dave Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure."
>>
>> Dave L
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:07 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> I'll turn the question around on you Dave, without providing any answers
>> however.
>> What purpose is served by the current points/advancement system?
>> Dave B
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:26 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system causing?
>> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they realize
>> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would they
>> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class? Is
>> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
>> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to be
>> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
>> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever been
>> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
>> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not moved up
>> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
>> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>>
>> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>>
>> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
>> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent commitment to
>> the higher class.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> Strongly agree.
>>
>> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
>> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
>> that is sandbagging.
>>
>> From:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
>> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
>> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
>> comfortable with.
>> Dave
>>
>> From:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> mike mueller
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
>> To:
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
>> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
>> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
>> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
>> the sport.
>> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
>> have now?
>>
>> Mike Mueller
>> Customer Services
>>
>> F3aunlimited
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3211/6587 - Release Date: 08/18/13
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 19:52:20 -0400
> From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <027601ce9d37$24fe70e0$6efb52a0$@wowway.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
>
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
>
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
>
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
>
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
>
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
>
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
>
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
>
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
>
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
>
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
>
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
>
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130819/b7be6099/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:15:02 +0000
> From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID:
> <9A5848CCBBDF544699E85744202C854D0A3C0543 at EXCHANGE01.koolsoftware.local>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - District 7 Webmaster
>
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
> Ron
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
> Dave
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com<mailto:geobet4evr at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net<mailto:schale1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
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>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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> http://www.eset.com
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>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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> http://www.eset.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 19:22:28 -0500
> From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <92D9CB2A-0871-48D7-8BD2-A776FA4A43C0 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>>
>> - Robert Beaubien
>> - District 7 Webmaster
>>
>> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>>
>> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>>
>> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>>
>> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>>
>> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>>
>> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>>
>> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>>
>> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>>
>> Good luck to team USA.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
>> Dave
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>>
>> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>>
>> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>>
>> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>>
>> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>>
>> G.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
>> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>>
>> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>>
>> Stuart C.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
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>> http://www.eset.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 19:28:19 -0500
> From: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID:
> <CALDH1UoXNYww2jpm8H8s3ZcJxOre+ArNW8BXpQdO=ESsj1fWyA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This is correct but only addresses not moving up by inserting "should" in
> place of "shall" or "will". It does not address moving down should it be
> warranted or wanted and certainly does not address trying out a new class
> without penalty I.e. no way to move back down.
> On Aug 19, 2013 6:37 PM, "Richard Lewis" <humptybump at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I guess everyone has forgotten that the advancement rules were relegated
>> to a mere suggestion in the last rules cycle and as such, pattern no longer
>> has an advancement system.. Lol...
>>
>> Richard
>> Sent from my mobile device.
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:12 PM, "Dave Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient
>> to
>>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a
>> rule on
>>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure."
>>>
>>> Dave L
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave
>> Burton
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:07 PM
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>
>>> I'll turn the question around on you Dave, without providing any answers
>>> however.
>>> What purpose is served by the current points/advancement system?
>>> Dave B
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave
>> Lockhart
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:26 PM
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>
>>> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system
>> causing?
>>> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they
>> realize
>>> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would
>> they
>>> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class?
>> Is
>>> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
>>> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to
>> be
>>> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
>>> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever
>> been
>>> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
>>> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not
>> moved up
>>> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
>>> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>>>
>>> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
>>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a
>> rule on
>>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>>>
>>> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
>>> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent
>> commitment to
>>> the higher class.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood,
>> Mark
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>
>>> Strongly agree.
>>>
>>> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
>>> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of
>> someone
>>> that is sandbagging.
>>>
>>> From:
>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>> Behalf Of
>>> Dave Burton
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
>>> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>
>>> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
>>> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
>>> comfortable with.
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> From:
>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>> Behalf Of
>>> mike mueller
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
>>> To:
>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>
>>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John
>> Gayer
>>> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
>>> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
>>> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back
>> into
>>> the sport.
>>> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what
>> we
>>> have now?
>>>
>>> Mike Mueller
>>> Customer Services
>>>
>>> F3aunlimited
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> No virus found in this message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3211/6587 - Release Date: 08/18/13
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 19:44:05 -0500
> From: "Dave Burton" <burtona at atmc.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <015001ce9d3e$5ff29670$1fd7c350$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Sorry, I didn?t intend my comments to be a slam at the individuals judging. I was a scribe at the 2011 WC and the judges I worked with were doing a great job given the rules and constraints and I thought very fair to all the contestants. I just think the whole process is so flawed that there is no way the human eyes and brain can accurately score to the judging criteria. Thus my ?the best judges aren?t very good? comment.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:52 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
>
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
>
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
>
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
>
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
>
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
>
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
>
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
>
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
>
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
>
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
>
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
>
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:38:44 -0700
> From: seefo at san.rr.com
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,
> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, Ronald
> Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <3ff90318-3667-4d68-8f4c-d18ccdf77f91.maildroid at localhost>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> If complaints about the scores can cause the scores to change that's a perfect example of the problem itself.
>
> This isn't some jingoistic complaint about how the USA pilots are being treated. It's a general issue across the board.
>
> I find it incredibly hard to believe a pilot flying at the WC can fly a simple 1/2 loop so poorly as to get scores of 5 or 6. This isn't some local contest with sportsman pilots still trying to figure out what the airplane is doing. These are the respective country's best pilots. Except for box or distance violations, something that simple should be damn near an automatic 8 at this level.
>
> Sent from my android device.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>>
>> - Robert Beaubien
>> - District 7 Webmaster
>>
>> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>>
>> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>>
>> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>>
>> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>>
>> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>>
>> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>>
>> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>>
>> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>>
>> Good luck to team USA.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
>> Dave
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>>
>> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>>
>> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>>
>> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>>
>> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>>
>> G.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
>> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>>
>> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>>
>> Stuart C.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130819/93270904/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:38:44 -0700
> From: seefo at san.rr.com
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,
> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, Ronald
> Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <3ff90318-3667-4d68-8f4c-d18ccdf77f91.maildroid at localhost>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> If complaints about the scores can cause the scores to change that's a perfect example of the problem itself.
>
> This isn't some jingoistic complaint about how the USA pilots are being treated. It's a general issue across the board.
>
> I find it incredibly hard to believe a pilot flying at the WC can fly a simple 1/2 loop so poorly as to get scores of 5 or 6. This isn't some local contest with sportsman pilots still trying to figure out what the airplane is doing. These are the respective country's best pilots. Except for box or distance violations, something that simple should be damn near an automatic 8 at this level.
>
> Sent from my android device.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>>
>> - Robert Beaubien
>> - District 7 Webmaster
>>
>> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>>
>> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>>
>> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>>
>> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>>
>> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>>
>> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>>
>> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>>
>> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>>
>> Good luck to team USA.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
>> Dave
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>>
>> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>>
>> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>>
>> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>>
>> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>>
>> G.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
>> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>>
>> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>>
>> Stuart C.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130819/93270904/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:39:16 +0000
> From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID:
> <9A5848CCBBDF544699E85744202C854D0A3C05EF at EXCHANGE01.koolsoftware.local>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> You may have a point, but I don?t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching. I could be wrong about that, but I don?t believe I am. And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - District 7 Webmaster
>
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - District 7 Webmaster
>
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
> Ron
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
> Dave
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com<mailto:geobet4evr at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net<mailto:schale1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130820/989d9462/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:47:27 -0700
> From: seefo at san.rr.com
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,
> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, "Robert
> L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <e2b2c9bc-09c9-4f5c-8933-e9fc601f9706.maildroid at localhost>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> You'd be wrong. There are several who are questioning what's going on from several different countries.
>
> Sent from my android device.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> You may have a point, but I don?t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching. I could be wrong about that, but I don?t believe I am. And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - District 7 Webmaster
>
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - District 7 Webmaster
>
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
> Ron
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
> Dave
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com<mailto:geobet4evr at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net<mailto:schale1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130819/f05a54b8/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 17:47:27 -0700
> From: seefo at san.rr.com
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,
> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, "Robert
> L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <e2b2c9bc-09c9-4f5c-8933-e9fc601f9706.maildroid at localhost>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> You'd be wrong. There are several who are questioning what's going on from several different countries.
>
> Sent from my android device.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> You may have a point, but I don?t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching. I could be wrong about that, but I don?t believe I am. And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - District 7 Webmaster
>
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>
> - Robert Beaubien
> - District 7 Webmaster
>
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
> Ron
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
> Dave
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com<mailto:geobet4evr at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net<mailto:schale1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 20:05:37 -0500
> From: Larry Diamond <webmaster at diamondrc.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <hp8i5egsjtwwck5akr557fuw.1376960658421 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I was trying to stay away from this topic... My concern is the focus for our team. They read this stuff... The last thing a competitor need to worry about are little distractions in any sport...especially how they are being judged and if it cost them...?
>
> Mark's job is to keep them focused.... if there is an issue... I believe it is his role to manage it...
>
> Mark is doing a great job... pilots need to stay focused and put the best flight up every time...
>
> For that reason... Public opinions about scoring and and judging should wait till afterwards.
>
> Just my .02
>
> Larry Diamond
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S?4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: seefo at san.rr.com
> Date: 08/19/2013 7:47 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,"Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> You'd be wrong. There are several who are questioning what's going on from several different countries.
>
> Sent from my android device.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> You may have a point, but I don?t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching.? I could be wrong about that, but I don?t believe I am.? And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.
> ?
> -????????? ?Robert Beaubien
> -????????? District 7 Webmaster
> ?
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
> ?
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> ?
> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. ?I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. ?I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. ?It was like we were judging a different flight. ?There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. ?The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
> ?
> Ron
> ?
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Ron.? The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
> ?
> -???????????Robert Beaubien
> -??????????District 7 Webmaster
> ?
> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
> ?
> From:?nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]?On Behalf Of?Ron Hansen
> Sent:?Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
> To:?'General pattern discussion'
> Subject:?Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> ?
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
> ?
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
> ?
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
> ?
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
> ?
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
> ?
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
> ?
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
> ?
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
> ?
> Good luck to team USA.
> ?
> Ron
> ?
> From:?nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]?On Behalf Of?Dave Burton
> Sent:?Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To:?'General pattern discussion'
> Subject:?Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> ?
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
> Dave
> ?
> From:?nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]?On Behalf Of?Keith Hoard
> Sent:?Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To:?General pattern discussion
> Subject:?Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> ?
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs. ?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar?with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
> ?
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb?I'd better do likewise"
> ?
> Think that's too?harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and?I had?great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers???
> ?
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
> ?
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
> ?
> G.
> ?
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" ?I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. ?Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. ?Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. ?Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? ?Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? ? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . ?Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> ?
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> ?
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 20:46:47 -0500
> From: Richard Lewis <humptybump at sbcglobal.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <6D36638A-F175-491E-AAC7-1C3171D73882 at sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I moved back to advanced at the beginning of the season per the method outlined in the rule book. Easy as could be. All done via email since the requirement for some obscure AMA form was removed.
>
> The procedure was certainly no penalty...
>
> If anyone needs to "try" out a class to see if they are ready, then they need to do it at the practice field, not a contest...
>
> Richard
> Sent from my mobile device.
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:28 PM, Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is correct but only addresses not moving up by inserting "should" in place of "shall" or "will". It does not address moving down should it be warranted or wanted and certainly does not address trying out a new class without penalty I.e. no way to move back down.
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013 6:37 PM, "Richard Lewis" <humptybump at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> I guess everyone has forgotten that the advancement rules were relegated to a mere suggestion in the last rules cycle and as such, pattern no longer has an advancement system.. Lol...
>>>
>>> Richard
>>> Sent from my mobile device.
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:12 PM, "Dave Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
>>>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
>>>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>>>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure."
>>>>
>>>> Dave L
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:07 PM
>>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>>
>>>> I'll turn the question around on you Dave, without providing any answers
>>>> however.
>>>> What purpose is served by the current points/advancement system?
>>>> Dave B
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:26 PM
>>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>>
>>>> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system causing?
>>>> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they realize
>>>> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would they
>>>> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class? Is
>>>> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
>>>> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to be
>>>> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
>>>> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever been
>>>> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
>>>> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not moved up
>>>> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
>>>> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>>>>
>>>> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
>>>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
>>>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>>>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>>>>
>>>> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
>>>> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent commitment to
>>>> the higher class.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
>>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>>
>>>> Strongly agree.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
>>>> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
>>>> that is sandbagging.
>>>>
>>>> From:
>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>>>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Dave Burton
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
>>>> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>>
>>>> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
>>>> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
>>>> comfortable with.
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> From:
>>>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>>>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> mike mueller
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
>>>> To:
>>>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>>>
>>>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
>>>> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>>>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>>>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>>>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
>>>> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>>>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
>>>> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
>>>> the sport.
>>>> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>>>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>>>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
>>>> have now?
>>>>
>>>> Mike Mueller
>>>> Customer Services
>>>>
>>>> F3aunlimited
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3211/6587 - Release Date: 08/18/13
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 21:48:01 -0400
> From: Robert Gainey <ruddercable at yahoo.com>
> To: Larry Diamond <webmaster at diamondrc.com>, General pattern
> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Cc: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <CE67B42D-C55A-49BF-940A-B2C3946922D6 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I agree with you Larry. It's all to easy to armchair quarterback from here in the states. We are not in South Africa with the team and very few of us have direct contact with them. We need to temper our thoughts and let our team fly.
> Go team USA !
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:05 PM, Larry Diamond <webmaster at diamondrc.com> wrote:
>
>> I was trying to stay away from this topic... My concern is the focus for our team. They read this stuff... The last thing a competitor need to worry about are little distractions in any sport...especially how they are being judged and if it cost them...
>>
>> Mark's job is to keep them focused.... if there is an issue... I believe it is his role to manage it...
>>
>> Mark is doing a great job... pilots need to stay focused and put the best flight up every time...
>>
>> For that reason... Public opinions about scoring and and judging should wait till afterwards.
>>
>> Just my .02
>>
>> Larry Diamond
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S?4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: seefo at san.rr.com
>> Date: 08/19/2013 7:47 PM (GMT-06:00)
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,"Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>> You'd be wrong. There are several who are questioning what's going on from several different countries.
>>
>> Sent from my android device.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> You may have a point, but I don?t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching. I could be wrong about that, but I don?t believe I am. And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Robert Beaubien
>>
>> - District 7 Webmaster
>>
>>
>>
>> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Robert Beaubien
>>
>> - District 7 Webmaster
>>
>>
>>
>> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>>
>>
>>
>> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>>
>>
>>
>> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>>
>>
>>
>> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>>
>>
>>
>> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>>
>>
>>
>> Good luck to team USA.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>>
>> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>>
>>
>>
>> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>>
>>
>>
>> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>>
>>
>>
>> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>>
>>
>>
>> G.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
>> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>>
>> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>>
>> Stuart C.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 20:55:21 -0500
> From: "Ryan Smith" <smaragdz at comcast.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <037c01ce9d48$549acb80$fdd06280$@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> ? If anyone needs to "try" out a class to see if they are ready, then they need to do it at the practice field, not a contest...
>
>
>
> Amen!
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 8:47 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
>
>
> I moved back to advanced at the beginning of the season per the method outlined in the rule book. Easy as could be. All done via email since the requirement for some obscure AMA form was removed.
>
>
>
> The procedure was certainly no penalty...
>
>
>
> If anyone needs to "try" out a class to see if they are ready, then they need to do it at the practice field, not a contest...
>
> Richard
>
> Sent from my mobile device.
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:28 PM, Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is correct but only addresses not moving up by inserting "should" in place of "shall" or "will". It does not address moving down should it be warranted or wanted and certainly does not address trying out a new class without penalty I.e. no way to move back down.
>
> On Aug 19, 2013 6:37 PM, "Richard Lewis" <humptybump at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I guess everyone has forgotten that the advancement rules were relegated to a mere suggestion in the last rules cycle and as such, pattern no longer has an advancement system.. Lol...
>
> Richard
> Sent from my mobile device.
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:12 PM, "Dave Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure."
>>
>> Dave L
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:07 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> I'll turn the question around on you Dave, without providing any answers
>> however.
>> What purpose is served by the current points/advancement system?
>> Dave B
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:26 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system causing?
>> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they realize
>> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would they
>> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class? Is
>> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
>> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to be
>> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
>> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever been
>> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
>> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not moved up
>> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
>> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>>
>> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
>> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
>> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
>> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>>
>> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
>> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent commitment to
>> the higher class.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> Strongly agree.
>>
>> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
>> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
>> that is sandbagging.
>>
>> From:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> Dave Burton
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
>> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
>> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
>> comfortable with.
>> Dave
>>
>> From:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
>> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>> mike mueller
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
>> To:
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
>> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
>> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
>> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
>> the sport.
>> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
>> have now?
>>
>> Mike Mueller
>> Customer Services
>>
>> F3aunlimited
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3211/6587 - Release Date: 08/18/13
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 22:18:31 -0400
> From: Hnycmpsts <hnycmpsts at aol.com>
> To: Larry Diamond <webmaster at diamondrc.com>, General pattern
> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Cc: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <B2E3163A-E47B-449F-9B46-61034B3D5236 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I agree!! All of these are good discussions, but lets stay focused on cheering our amazing team!!!!
>
> This is what they need.
>
> GO TEAM USA!!!!
>
> Oscar
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:05 PM, Larry Diamond <webmaster at diamondrc.com> wrote:
>
>> I was trying to stay away from this topic... My concern is the focus for our team. They read this stuff... The last thing a competitor need to worry about are little distractions in any sport...especially how they are being judged and if it cost them...
>>
>> Mark's job is to keep them focused.... if there is an issue... I believe it is his role to manage it...
>>
>> Mark is doing a great job... pilots need to stay focused and put the best flight up every time...
>>
>> For that reason... Public opinions about scoring and and judging should wait till afterwards.
>>
>> Just my .02
>>
>> Larry Diamond
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S?4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: seefo at san.rr.com
>> Date: 08/19/2013 7:47 PM (GMT-06:00)
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,"Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>> You'd be wrong. There are several who are questioning what's going on from several different countries.
>>
>> Sent from my android device.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob at koolsoft.com>
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>> You may have a point, but I don?t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching. I could be wrong about that, but I don?t believe I am. And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Robert Beaubien
>>
>> - District 7 Webmaster
>>
>>
>>
>> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard. It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Robert Beaubien
>>
>> - District 7 Webmaster
>>
>>
>>
>> "No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>>
>>
>>
>> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>>
>>
>>
>> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>>
>>
>>
>> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 01:45:11 -0400
> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <23463181-7766-4966-812A-A638AC9E8AC9 at paragon-inc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> +10
>
> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:53 AM, "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com>> wrote:
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
> Ron
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
> Dave
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com<mailto:geobet4evr at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net<mailto:schale1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 02:43:56 -0500
> From: "P & A Hobbies" <PnAHobbies at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Large 6-inch clear heatshrink tube source
> Message-ID: <000401ce9d79$07184dc0$1548e940$@sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi, All,
>
> I am in need of at least 6" inside diameter heat shrink tube to wrap a 10S 5000mAh pack.
> Does anyone know a good source for it?
> It should be thin after shrinking. Most that I found were at least 1mm thick after shrink down to 6" diameter.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ihncheol
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 06:05:24 -0500
> From: Bob Pastorello <rpasto513 at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Large 6-inch clear heatshrink tube
> source
> Message-ID:
> <CAAHFK8JtcPR4wrGyxiuu7wiBHPXHb1QxUU9FSt4U8JV+A+Up8w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Search results from a source I use for a variety of things.
> http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=shrink+tubing+150mm&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20130820030119
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:43 AM, P & A Hobbies <PnAHobbies at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>> Hi, All,
>>
>> I am in need of at least 6" inside diameter heat shrink tube to wrap a 10S
>> 5000mAh pack.
>> Does anyone know a good source for it?
>> It should be thin after shrinking. Most that I found were at least 1mm
>> thick after shrink down to 6" diameter.
>>
>> Any suggestion?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ihncheol
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> --
> Bob Pastorello
> rpasto513 at gmail.com
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:45:46 -0400
> From: "Scott Smith" <vze23c3q at gmail.com>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <03cb01ce9d9a$cfd99270$6f8cb750$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Sticking with something a little more abstract.
>
>
>
> Does something need to be broken in order to improve it?
>
>
>
> There will be a K-Factor article coming soon on TBL so if you don't know how
> it works, you will soon! I was torn about responding before the article
> appears as I would like save the discussion for after you've all had a
> chance to take it in. But maybe the stage can be set for things to think
> about.
>
>
>
> No changes are needed to use TBL in the F3A Nat's; it's already in the rule
> book. The question is should we use it? Dropping high/low discards 40% of
> the judges' scores when 5 judges are used. TBL will discard less than 10%.
>
>
>
> The only AMA event that can make use of TBL is the Nat's Masters Finals as a
> minimum 5 judges are needed.
>
>
>
> Judging at the Nat's is very good and we don't see the large spreads like
> they do at the Worlds. This means TBL will not change the overall standing
> one iota. So why not run it? In the off chance that one judge is deemed
> biased, his score will be removed and all can be made aware. Bias can be
> completely unintentional, so it should not be taken as a negative (unless it
> happens repeatedly!)
>
>
>
> What I propose will make the process very transparent so everyone can see
> how the results were calculated.there is no black box conspiracy, and there
> is nothing artificial, contrived or random about TBL.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> rcmaster199 at aol.com
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 12:45 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> Scott Smith recently reached out to Don Ramsey and me regarding TBL and it's
> first born, FPS, (Fair Play System) which is used in IAC competitions. TBL
> essentially changes the scores of whole flights in toto for any given judge,
> while FPS takes it down a step to the individual maneuver, and changes a
> judge's given scores, maneuver for maneuver, as assessed by the statistical
> package.
>
>
>
> To me, it is fundamentally wrong to artificially change a judge's score
> based on statistics, just to "normalize" the whole panel of judges and
> reduce the scoring variation, judge to judge and judge panel to judge panel.
> In the examples we discussed, pilots all placed the same with straight up
> scores and with TBL applied. But I am not convinced that that will always be
> true. In one example in fact, not only did the average scores each judge
> gave became constant, so did each judge's standard deviation. TBL is that
> powerful and that augmenting.....
>
>
>
> I want to keep an open mind about statistical augmentation of the scores a
> judge gives. I am leaning towards FPS more but still, it will be judging by
> statistics so to speak. BTW---For this to work, Perceived Zeroes will
> require input from the Chief Judge in every case before the zeroes become
> Hard Zeroes, for all judges. Part of the existing Judge's Rules will require
> revision....National Comps are one thing, and local comps something
> else??.....
>
>
>
> I think there should be lots more conversation before any changes are
> implemented. The main question to answer is "Is the present system broken?"
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> MattK
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Smith <smaragdz at comcast.net>
> To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sun, Aug 18, 2013 7:51 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> TBL are intials, standing for Tarasov, Bauer, Long; the people that came up
> with it. Below is an explanation scalped from a post/email that Derek
> Koopowitz wrote a while back.
>
>
>
> The Tarasov-Bauer-Long (TBL) Scoring method has been around since the
> 1970's.
>
> It has been used in the full size arena since 1978 and has been used at
> every full size IAC World Championship since 1980. The TBL method applies
> proven statistical probability theory to the judge's scores to resolve style
> differences and bias, and to avoid the inclusion of potential faulty
> judgements in contest results.
>
>
>
> Why we need TBL
>
> To understand just why we need TBL, and how it works, is of considerable
> importance to us all. It is important to the pilots because it is there to
> reduce the prospect of unsatisfactory judgements affecting their results,
> and it is important for judges because it will introduce a completely new
> dimension of scrutiny into the sequence totals, and it will also discreetly
> engage the attention of the Chief Judge, or Contest Director, if the judges
> conclusions differ sufficiently from all those other judges on the same
> panel.
>
>
>
> When people get together to judge how well a pre-defined competitive task is
> being tackled, the range of opinions is often diverse. This is entirely
> natural among humans where the critique of any display of skill relies on
> the interpretation of rapidly changing visual cues. In order to minimize the
> prospect of any "way out opinions" having too much effect on the result, it
> is usual to average the accumulated scores to arrive at a final assessment,
> which takes everybody's opinion into account.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately this averaging approach can achieve the opposite of what we
> really want, which is to identify, and where needed, remove those "way out
> opinions" because they are the ones most likely to be ill-judged and
> therefore should be discarded, leaving the rest to determine the more
> appropriate result. In aerobatics the process of judging according to the
> rulebook normally leads to a series of generally similar personal views.
> However, one judge's downgrading may be harsher or more lenient than the
> next, their personal feelings toward each competitor or aircraft type may
> predispose toward favor or dislike (bias), and they will almost certainly
> miss or see things that other judges do not.
>
>
>
> How then can we "judge" the judges and so reach a conclusion, which has good
> probability of acceptance by all the concerned parties? The key word is
> probability, the concept of a perceived level of confidence in collectively
> viewed judgements has entered the frame. What we really mean is that we must
> be confident that opinions pitched outside some pre-defined level of
> reasonable acceptability will be identified as such and will not be used.
> This sort of situation is the daily bread and butter of well established
> probability theory which, when suitably applied, can produce a very clear
> cut analysis of numerically expressed opinions provided that the appropriate
> criteria have been carefully established beforehand.
>
>
>
> What has been developed through several previous editions is some arithmetic
> which addresses the judge's raw scores in such a way that any which are
> probably unfair are discarded with an established level of confidence. To
> understand the process you need only accept some quite simple arithmetic
> procedures, which are central to what is called "statistical probability".
> The TBL scoring system in effect does the following:
>
> * Communizes the judging styles.
>
> * Computes TBL scores
>
> * Publishes results
>
>
>
> Communizing the judging styles involves remodelling the scores to bring all
> the judging styles to a common format and removing any natural bias between
> panel members. Following some calculations, each judge's set of scores are
> squeezed or stretched and moved en-bloc up or down so that the sets all show
> the same overall spread and have identical averages (bias). Within each set
> the pilot order and score progression must remain unaltered, but now valid
> score comparisons are possible between all the panel judges on behalf of
> each pilot.
>
>
>
> Computing the TBL score involves looking at the high and low scores in each
> pilot's set and throws out any that are too "far out" to be fair. This is
> done by subtracting the average for the set from each one and dividing the
> result by the "sample standard deviation" - if the result of this sum is
> greater than 1.645 then according to statistical probability theory we can
> be at least 90% confident that it is unfair, so the score is discarded.
>
>
>
> This calculation and the mathematically derived 1.645 criteria is the key to
> the correctness of the TBL process, and is based on many years of experience
> by the full size aerobatics organization with contest scores at all levels.
>
>
>
> The discarding of any scores of course changes for a pilot the average and
> standard deviation of their remaining results, and so the whole process is
> repeated. After several cycles any "unfair" scores will have gone, and those
> that remain will all satisfy the essential 90% confidence criteria.
>
>
>
> Publishing the results is derived by averaging each pilot's scores. The
> final TBL iteration therefore has any appropriate penalty/bonus values
> applied and the results are then sorted in order of descent of the total
> scores to rank the pilots first to last.
>
>
>
> These final scores may, or may not, be normalized to 1000 points, depending
> on the setting for the selected class. Educating and improving the judges is
> a useful by-product of this process in that it provides all the bells and
> whistles how each judge has performed by comparison with the overall judging
> panel average and when seen against the 90% level of confidence criteria.
>
>
>
> The TBL system will produce an analysis showing each judge the percentage of
> scores accepted as "OK", and a comparison with the panel style (spread of
> score) and bias (average). Unfortunately TBL, by definition, brings with it
> a 10% possibility of upsetting an honest judge's day. The trade-off is that
> we expect not only to achieve a set of results with at least 90% confidence
> that are "fair" every time, but that the system also provides us with a
> wonderful tool to address our judging standards. TBL will ensure that every
> judge's opinion has equal weight, and that each sequence score by each judge
> is accepted only if it lies within an acceptable margin from the panel
> average.
>
>
>
> TBL, however, by necessity takes the dominant judging panel view as the
> "correct" one and it can't make right scores out of wrong ones. If 6 out of
> 8 judges are distracted and make a mess out of one pilots efforts, then for
> TBL this becomes the controlling assessment of that pilots performance, and
> the other 2 diligent judges who got it right will see their scores
> unceremoniously zapped. In practice this would be extremely unusual - from
> the judging line it is almost impossible to deliberately upset the final
> results without collusion between a majority of the judges, and if that
> starts to happen then someone is definitely on the wrong planet.
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of Jeff and
> Claire
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 6:47 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> What does TBL stand for?
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 3:54 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> After all pilots fly in front of each set of judges on day 4 of prelims, I
> think. That would be part of the normalization process. At least that is
> how I remember it from previous WC's.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>
> To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sun, Aug 18, 2013 4:40 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> When do they do the TBL?
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 3:33 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> A click on the Team USA logo on the NSRCA home page takes you to the Team
> USA website. That has a link to Cindy Wickhizer's page:
>
>
>
> https://2013worldsteamusa.shutterfly.com/,
>
>
>
> which has been where Mark is sending info. He and I both previously
> announced that on this list.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Seeling <gseeling at q.com>
> To: nsrca-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sun, Aug 18, 2013 2:35 pm
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> is there a computer man in the NSRCA ??if there is ,please post the
> results on the nsrca web site, so rank & file will know what is going on.
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:17:39 -0500
> From: "Michael S. Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <008d01ce9d9f$442724e0$cc756ea0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Oh my, we can't have this, it is much too logical and makes too much sense
> and it is already in place. Really I agree with this. The advancement
> system to me is fine.
> mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:26 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I have to ask the question....what harm is the advancement system causing?
> If someone actually reads the rulebook in detail to the extent they realize
> they may "point out" and be required (by the rules) to move up, would they
> not also realize the mechanism available to stay in their current class? Is
> sending an email to AMA too cumbersome for those intent on precisely
> following the rules? Has anyone actually ever achieved enough points to be
> forced into the next class without having the requisite skills AND been
> challenged by peers to move up (not that I know of)? Has anyone ever been
> denied a request to move down in class (not that I know of)? Has anyone
> ever achieved advancement points (knowingly or unknowingly) and not moved up
> because they were either not dominating the class or did not have the
> comfort level for the next class (I know several instances of this)?
>
> While I agree that in most instances peer pressure alone is sufficient to
> convince a sandbagger (or potential sandbagger) to move up, having a rule on
> the books makes the situation 100% impartial and impersonal, and to some
> extent provides the "teeth" for the peer pressure.
>
> I think there is merit in the idea of being able to "try out" a higher
> class. Allow 1 instance per year without penalty or permanent commitment to
> the higher class.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:25 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> Strongly agree.
>
> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 9:07 PM, "Ryan Smith"
> <smaragdz at comcast.net<mailto:smaragdz at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Agreed. Peer pressure at contests I think is enough to take care of someone
> that is sandbagging.
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:46 PM
> To: 'mike mueller'; 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> I thought you can do this already. IMO we should eliminate the whole
> points/advancement system and let all flyers fly the class they feel most
> comfortable with.
> Dave
>
> From:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lis
> ts.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> mike mueller
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:16 PM
> To:
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
> the sport.
> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
> have now?
>
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services
>
> F3aunlimited
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:20:14 -0500
> From: "Michael S. Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <008e01ce9d9f$a072c4c0$e1584e40$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> George, I have a case of those nuts too...
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of George Kennie
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:07 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the
> day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's
> potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their
> scoring awards.
>
>
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD
> ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him
> highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do
> likewise"
>
>
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that
> I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I
> saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his
> face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so.
> CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding
> force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all
> around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission
> is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that.
> Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's
> an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores
> were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
>
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been
> classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but
> could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
>
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I
> can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the
> scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at
> the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half
> loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon?
> Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the
> errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule (
> 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and
> unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to
> see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130820/654d7270/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:20:55 -0500
> From: "Michael S. Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <009301ce9d9f$b903d4c0$2b0b7e40$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> biased amateurs,,,,
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just
> spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the
> day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's
> potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their
> scoring awards.
>
>
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD
> ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him
> highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do
> likewise"
>
>
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that
> I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I
> saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his
> face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so.
> CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding
> force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all
> around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission
> is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that.
> Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's
> an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores
> were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
>
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been
> classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but
> could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
>
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I
> can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the
> scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at
> the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half
> loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon?
> Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the
> errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule (
> 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and
> unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to
> see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130820/11eda301/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 31
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
> From: mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID:
> <1377007216.28937.YahooMailNeo at web124702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Amen
> ?
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services?
> ?F3AUnlimited
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
> +10
>
> Sent from my average intelligence? phone
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 1:53 AM, "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com>> wrote:
>
> Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?
>
> I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.
>
> I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.
>
> This isn???t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.
>
> The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.
>
> Let???s let the chips fall where they may.
>
> We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.
>
> Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.
>
> Good luck to team USA.
>
> Ron
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren???t very good.
> Dave
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com<mailto:geobet4evr at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net<mailto:schale1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow"? I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect.? Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests.? Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround.? Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon?? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't?? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) .? Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8705 (20130819) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130820/d5fbb5a0/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 32
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 11:11:32 -0400 (EDT)
> From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Large 6-inch clear heatshrink tube
> source
> Message-ID: <8D06BCEAF91D918-1908-5C7A6 at webmail-d251.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> How about a piece of UltraKote? About as thin and light as it gets. Another possibility, search for a drink bottle shrink tube. That's typically made from PET also but it's a bit thin...doubled up it should be fine
>
> regards
>
> MattK
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Pastorello <rpasto513 at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 7:05 am
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Large 6-inch clear heatshrink tube source
>
>
>
> Search results from a source I use for a variety of things.
> http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=shrink+tubing+150mm&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20130820030119
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:43 AM, P & A Hobbies <PnAHobbies at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Hi, All,
>
> I am in need of at least 6" inside diameter heat shrink tube to wrap a 10S 5000mAh pack.
> Does anyone know a good source for it?
> It should be thin after shrinking. Most that I found were at least 1mm thick after shrink down to 6" diameter.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ihncheol
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
> --
> Bob Pastorello
> rpasto513 at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> SRCA-discussion mailing list
> SRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> ttp://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130820/c2ad5ad8/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 33
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 08:39:01 -0700
> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
> Message-ID: <004b01ce9dbb$658281e0$308785a0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> It is really hard to get all 20 judges to be biased especially when they
> come from all over. in the prelims, if one looks at the scores, there are 5
> judges scoring and if the range is somewhat narrow on a maneuver then I
> really doubt there is bias or collusion - they are obviously seeing the same
> thing. None of us were there to see what the conditions were like and based
> on what I've heard they were REALLY challenging.
>
>
>
> We flew in 25 mph winds at the Nats this year, pretty much down the runway.
> and I know how challenging that was. I saw MANY good Masters pilots struggle
> (one's that finished in the top 4 in Masters) with the box and a LOT of them
> were going out the box on the left side. All the scores that I gave them
> were well deserved.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Michael S.
> Harrison
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:21 AM
> To: 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> biased amateurs,,,,
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest
>
>
>
> So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just
> spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com
> <mailto:geobet4evr at gmail.com> > wrote:
>
> I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the
> day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's
> potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their
> scoring awards.
>
>
>
> Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD
> ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him
> highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do
> likewise"
>
>
>
> Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that
> I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I
> saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his
> face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so.
> CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding
> force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all
> around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission
> is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that.
> Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's
> an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores
> were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers
>
>
>
> I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been
> classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but
> could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?
>
>
>
> Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.
>
>
>
> G.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net
> <mailto:schale1 at verizon.net> > wrote:
>
> Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I
> can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the
> scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at
> the Nats never mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half
> loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon?
> Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the
> errors that we don't? Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule (
> 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?
> I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and
> unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to
> see the same criteria used at all contests.
>
> Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)
>
> Stuart C.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 34
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 11:48:07 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com>
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] WC Day 3 Prelim scores
> Message-ID: <8D06BD3CB4A5521-8B4-562E0 at webmail-m284.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Attached.
>
> Jon
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 35
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 11:09:25 -0500
> From: Bob Pastorello <rpasto513 at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WC Day 3 Prelim scores
> Message-ID:
> <CAAHFK8LQoYw5SxDq+fCgGFn2qJSSr2bd3p80CquYrssPSKoXYg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Question from a lurker - sincerely - those who have closely-watched worlds
> before....Is the "spread" across competitors usually this wide? It seems
> counter-intuitive, considering every country sent its' best. I'm not
> whining nor complaining or making any observations, just was curious about
> the "spread", hoped someone could 'splain???
>
> GO TEAM USA!!!
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Attached.
>> Jon
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bob Pastorello
> rpasto513 at gmail.com
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 36
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 09:24:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Larry Diamond <ldiamond at diamondrc.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WC Day 3 Prelim scores
> Message-ID:
> <1377015877.17385.YahooMailNeo at web5806.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Based on what I understand, and has been stated in a couple recent post, we won't have a good picture of how close it is until after the 4th flight when all pilots have flown in front of all the judges and the scores are tabulated with the scoring system...
> ?
> Individual and Team wise, it looks like Team USA is flying well in the prelims...
> ?
> Can't wait for Mark's update... LOL
> ?
> ?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Pastorello <rpasto513 at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WC Day 3 Prelim scores
>
>
>
> Question from a lurker - sincerely - those who have closely-watched worlds before....Is the "spread" across competitors usually this wide?? It seems counter-intuitive, considering every country sent its' best.? I'm not whining nor complaining or making any observations, just was curious about the "spread", hoped someone could 'splain???
>
> GO TEAM USA!!!
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Jon Lowe <jonlowe at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Attached.Jon
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
> --
> Bob Pastorello
> rpasto513 at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 37
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 10:00:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <1377018020.34403.YahooMailNeo at web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. ?You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.?
>
> ?
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 38
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 11:00:56 -0600
> From: John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net>
> To: mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <5213A0C8.8010202 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Mike,
> Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake
> Pattern Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good
> airplane for him.
> The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other
> members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting
> new folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new RV parked
> in the middle of all that corn.
>
> As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during
> the contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem
> of being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have
> pointed out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves
> petitioning the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with
> this system. One is that there are some who quit rather than go through
> the process. Those flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and
> may never return. I know about that, I was one of them for a decade.
> The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these
> petitions. They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may not)
> do a bit of research, and then approve the petition. If they are always
> approved, what is the function of this process? Why should we waste the
> time of the DVP? Leave it up to the competitor to recognize that a move
> back one class would be good for him. Peer pressure will take care of
> abusers - as it does now, not the AMA.
> John
> On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:
>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John
>> Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in
>> their class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the
>> residual benefit from such a program could very well help to get some
>> guys back into the sport.
>> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than
>> what we have now?
>> Mike Mueller
>> Customer Services
>>
>> F3aunlimited
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 39
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 10:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <1377018170.65409.YahooMailNeo at web142302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Forgot to mention, TBL has not been applied yet so the ranking will probably change a bit.
> ?
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:00 PM
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
>
>
> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. ?You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.?
>
> ?
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 40
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 10:07:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jim Quinn <jaqfly at prodigy.net>
> To: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <1377018423.49350.YahooMailNeo at web184801.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Bob,
> ?
> You're the best!!!
> Thanks for the spread sheet.
>
> Jim Quinn
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:00 PM
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
>
>
> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. ?You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.?
>
> ?
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 41
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 10:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jim Quinn <jaqfly at prodigy.net>
> To: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <1377018504.15111.YahooMailNeo at web184804.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> TBL or not, you're still the best!!!
> Thanks so much.
>
> Jim Quinn
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
>
>
> Forgot to mention, TBL has not been applied yet so the ranking will probably change a bit.
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:00 PM
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
>
>
> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. ?You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.?
>
> ?
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 42
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 10:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jim Quinn <jaqfly at prodigy.net>
> To: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <1377018504.15111.YahooMailNeo at web184804.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> TBL or not, you're still the best!!!
> Thanks so much.
>
> Jim Quinn
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
>
>
> Forgot to mention, TBL has not been applied yet so the ranking will probably change a bit.
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:00 PM
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
>
>
> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. ?You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.?
>
> ?
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 43
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 13:09:09 -0400
> From: George Kennie <geobet4evr at gmail.com>
> To: Jim Quinn <jaqfly at prodigy.net>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <CAOG==dXgL3d+PJZntyOgnaDiQHmMF9mo-pUS548_121fR2d-7w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I agree
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Jim Quinn <jaqfly at prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> You're the best!!!
>> Thanks for the spread sheet.
>>
>> Jim Quinn
>>
>> *From:* Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
>> *To:* nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:00 PM
>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>>
>> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by
>> total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. You can also
>> rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the
>> scores are published in this format.
>>
>>
>> Bob Kane
>> getterflash at yahoo.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 44
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
> From: mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com>
> To: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <1377020718.51903.YahooMailNeo at web124703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Cool Bob
> ?
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services?
> ?F3AUnlimited
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
> To: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:00 PM
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
>
>
> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. ?You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.?
>
> ?
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130820/d43403ef/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 45
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 13:02:49 -0500
> From: Richard Lewis <humptybump at sbcglobal.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <C87E964C-C543-4837-BCE9-018F8CF9A86E at sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I wrote an official rules proposal last cycle to allow declaration of class at the beginning of each season...
>
> Competitors typically fly in 3 to 4 contests per season.. Plenty of time to test one's self in another class and then choose the appropriate class for the next season...No forced advancement, no one stuck in an inappropriate class...
>
> It was whole-heartedly rejected in favor of the suggestion method that ultimately passed...
>
> Richard
> Sent from my mobile device.
>
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:00 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good airplane for him.
>> The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting new folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the middle of all that corn.
>>
>> As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during the contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem of being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have pointed out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves petitioning the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with this system. One is that there are some who quit rather than go through the process. Those flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and may never return. I know about that, I was one of them for a decade.
>> The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these petitions. They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may not) do a bit of research, and then approve the petition. If they are always approved, what is the function of this process? Why should we waste the time of the DVP? Leave it up to the competitor to recognize that a move back one class would be good for him. Peer pressure will take care of abusers - as it does now, not the AMA.
>> John
>> On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:
>>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into the sport.
>>> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we have now?
>>>
>>> Mike Mueller
>>> Customer Services
>>>
>>> F3aunlimited
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 46
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 11:07:29 -0700
> From: Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com>
> To: mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID:
> <CAGBB6k+tJwnBH5PdUWi63d_uKWs2hTGjox5dyYz_pQuC=chCzQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Nice! How many advance from the Prelims to the Semis?
>
> Peter+
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:45 AM, mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Cool Bob
>>
>> Mike Mueller
>> Customer Services
>> F3AUnlimited
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
>> *To:* nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:00 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>>
>> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by
>> total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. You can also
>> rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the
>> scores are published in this format.
>>
>>
>> Bob Kane
>> getterflash at yahoo.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
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> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 47
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 14:10:02 -0400
> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID: <13E411C7-42F6-43DE-92D4-EC3FFE3C5E1C at paragon-inc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> 27. But this list will change a lot once TBL is applied and everything is normalized. Not to mention several have rounds that will likely be dropped.
>
> Sent from my average intelligence phone
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Peter Vogel" <vogel.peter at gmail.com<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Nice! How many advance from the Prelims to the Semis?
>
> Peter+
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:45 AM, mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com<mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Cool Bob
>
> Mike Mueller
> Customer Services
> F3AUnlimited
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com<mailto:getterflash at yahoo.com>>
> To: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:00 PM
>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>
> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.
>
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com<mailto:getterflash at yahoo.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> --
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> [http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7163/6513778381_5569cc985d_m.jpg]
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 48
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 13:43:41 -0500
> From: "John Fuqua" <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <07dc01ce9dd5$3102b920$93082b60$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Here is the rule:
>
> 8.1.2: Exception: Consideration will be given to requests for
> reclassification to a lower class for various reasons, such as disability or
> breaks from participation of several years. For a contestant to be
> reclassified to a lower class, the contestant must petition via email (or
> letter if email is not available) to the contestant's AMA District Contest
> Board (CB) representative explaining the reasons for the reclassification.
> The CB representative will forward a recommendation for approval/disapproval
> to the AMA District Vice President (DVP). The AMA DVP will concur/non-concur
> and forward the decision to the petitioner and AMA District CB
> representative with an info copy to the AMA Technical Director.
>
>
>
> Note that the petitioner goes to his CB rep who actually makes the
> recommendation. My DVP has always agreed with my recommendation and I see
> no reason why other DVPs would act differently. All this is done via email
> so it should not take more than a week or two at most. I always info the
> AMA Tech Director as well just to keep him in the loop.
>
>
>
> JohnF
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:01 PM
> To: mike mueller; General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
>
>
> Mike,
> Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern
> Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good airplane for him.
>
> The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other
> members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting new
> folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the
> middle of all that corn.
>
> As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during the
> contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem of
> being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have pointed
> out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves petitioning
> the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with this system. One
> is that there are some who quit rather than go through the process. Those
> flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and may never return. I know
> about that, I was one of them for a decade.
> The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these petitions.
> They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may not) do a bit of
> research, and then approve the petition. If they are always approved, what
> is the function of this process? Why should we waste the time of the DVP?
> Leave it up to the competitor to recognize that a move back one class would
> be good for him. Peer pressure will take care of abusers - as it does now,
> not the AMA.
> John
>
> On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:
>
> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer
> from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>
> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>
> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>
> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>
> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
> the sport.
>
> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>
> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>
> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we
> have now?
>
>
>
> Mike Mueller
>
> Customer Services
>
>
>
> F3aunlimited
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 49
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 12:44:02 -0600
> From: Jon Bruml <jon at techstyles.com>
> To: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Cc: nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID: <98975F20-35C6-44B9-8F31-31046F43F07E at techstyles.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks
>
> Jon Bruml
> Techstyles
>
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 11:00 AM, Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this time. You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.
>>
>>
>> Bob Kane
>> getterflash at yahoo.com
>> <WorldsScoresDay3.xls>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 50
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 14:10:20 -0500
> From: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID:
> <CALDH1UpFgN0hq-O=pOp5NQkPuOnJ+Y3p_rfF0oNCV5XarNESRA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I, by no means, am saying that the current rule does not work or that it's
> hard to get what you need. What I am asking, however, is what is the con
> to what is proposed? Why don't we want to try to make it easier even if it
> isn't hard now? We've listed the benefits over and over again but no one
> seems to want to say why it's no good.
>
> I have always found it interesting that the folks that resist change and
> want to leave well enough alone are already at the top percentage of their
> class and have one, two or ten sponsors or finish in the top 10 at the
> Nats. What about the rest of the community?
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 1:43 PM, John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Here is the rule:****
>>
>> *8.1.2: Exception: *Consideration will be given to requests for
>> reclassification to a lower class for various reasons, such as disability
>> or breaks from participation of several years. For a contestant to be
>> reclassified to a lower class, the contestant must petition via email (or
>> letter if email is not available) to the contestant's AMA District Contest
>> Board (CB) representative explaining the reasons for the reclassification.
>> The CB representative will forward a recommendation for
>> approval/disapproval to the AMA District Vice President (DVP). The AMA DVP
>> will concur/non-concur and forward the decision to the petitioner and AMA
>> District CB representative with an info copy to the AMA Technical Director.
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Note that the petitioner goes to his CB rep who actually makes the
>> recommendation. My DVP has always agreed with my recommendation and I
>> see no reason why other DVPs would act differently. All this is done via
>> email so it should not take more than a week or two at most. I always info
>> the AMA Tech Director as well just to keep him in the loop. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> JohnF****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
>> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *John Gayer
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:01 PM
>>
>> *To:* mike mueller; General pattern discussion
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern
>> Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good airplane for
>> him.
>> The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other
>> members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting new
>> folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the
>> middle of all that corn.
>>
>> As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during the
>> contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem of
>> being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have pointed
>> out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves petitioning
>> the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with this system. One
>> is that there are some who quit rather than go through the process. Those
>> flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and may never return. I know
>> about that, I was one of them for a decade.
>> The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these petitions.
>> They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may not) do a bit of
>> research, and then approve the petition. If they are always approved, what
>> is the function of this process? Why should we waste the time of the DVP?
>> Leave it up to the competitor to recognize that a move back one class would
>> be good for him. Peer pressure will take care of abusers - as it does now,
>> not the AMA.
>> John****
>>
>> On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:****
>>
>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John
>> Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with us.****
>>
>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.****
>>
>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.*
>> ***
>>
>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their
>> class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.****
>>
>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual
>> benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into
>> the sport.****
>>
>> What would it take to get such a program instituted? ****
>>
>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>> ****
>>
>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what
>> we have now?****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Mike Mueller****
>>
>> Customer Services ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> F3aunlimited****
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>> _______________________________________________****
>>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list****
>>
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org****
>>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> Sr. Systems Engineer - Infrastructure
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 51
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 13:23:30 -0600
> From: John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
> Message-ID: <5213C232.4050602 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Rules say 1/3 but no more than 30 go to semis. 26 or 27?
> Rules say top 10 go to finals when there are more than 40 competitors.
>
> On 8/20/2013 12:07 PM, Peter Vogel wrote:
>> Nice! How many advance from the Prelims to the Semis?
>>
>> Peter+
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:45 AM, mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Cool Bob
>> Mike Mueller
>> Customer Services
>> F3AUnlimited
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:getterflash at yahoo.com>>
>> *To:* nsrca <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:00 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Worlds Day 3 as an Excel spreadsheet
>>
>> I imported the scores into Excel (old format .xls). I sorted
>> pilots by total score so you can see how they are ranked at this
>> time. You can also rank by judge panel for some other views. I
>> will add day 4 tomorrow if the scores are published in this format.
>>
>>
>> Bob Kane
>> getterflash at yahoo.com <mailto:getterflash at yahoo.com>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 52
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 13:42:02 -0600
> From: John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <5213C68A.8030103 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> You will note that there is no specific consideration in the rule for
> the competitor that says " I made a mistake moving up, I was not ready
> although I thought I was and I would like to move back a class". The
> examples given would lead one to believe that this "various reason"
> would not be accepted. And this example is the key missing element that
> loses us competitors.
> You will also note that "various reasons" could mean anything. I
> thought the AMA tried to stay away from ambiguous rules like this.
> Quite frankly the AMA has abrogated their responsibility to maintain the
> class distinctions under their rules. If they want to keep lists of
> competitors and their classes, advancement points and disqualify results
> for being in a lower class without waiver, that would be fine. Right now
> the AMA maintain no lists of competitor classes, points towards
> advancement or participation levels and should have rules that reflect
> that lack of interest, leaving the SIG to self-police.
> John
>
>
>
> On 8/20/2013 12:43 PM, John Fuqua wrote:
>>
>> Here is the rule:
>>
>> *8.1.2: Exception: *Consideration will be given to requests for
>> reclassification to a lower class for various reasons, such as
>> disability or breaks from participation of several years. For a
>> contestant to be reclassified to a lower class, the contestant must
>> petition via email (or letter if email is not available) to the
>> contestant's AMA District Contest Board (CB) representative explaining
>> the reasons for the reclassification. The CB representative will
>> forward a recommendation for approval/disapproval to the AMA District
>> Vice President (DVP). The AMA DVP will concur/non-concur and forward
>> the decision to the petitioner and AMA District CB representative with
>> an info copy to the AMA Technical Director.
>>
>> Note that the petitioner goes to his CB rep who actually makes the
>> recommendation. My DVP has always agreed with my recommendation and
>> I see no reason why other DVPs would act differently. All this is
>> done via email so it should not take more than a week or two at most.
>> I always info the AMA Tech Director as well just to keep him in the loop.
>>
>> JohnF
>>
>> *From:*nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *John
>> Gayer
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:01 PM
>> *To:* mike mueller; General pattern discussion
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>>
>> Mike,
>> Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake
>> Pattern Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good
>> airplane for him.
>> The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and
>> other members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying,
>> meeting new folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new
>> RV parked in the middle of all that corn.
>>
>> As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during
>> the contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the
>> problem of being able to move down a class at the end of the year.
>> Others have pointed out that there is a mechanism for doing this now.
>> It involves petitioning the AMA for a change in class. There are two
>> problems with this system. One is that there are some who quit rather
>> than go through the process. Those flyers are lost to us for long
>> periods of time and may never return. I know about that, I was one of
>> them for a decade.
>> The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these
>> petitions. They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may
>> not) do a bit of research, and then approve the petition. If they are
>> always approved, what is the function of this process? Why should we
>> waste the time of the DVP? Leave it up to the competitor to recognize
>> that a move back one class would be good for him. Peer pressure will
>> take care of abusers - as it does now, not the AMA.
>> John
>>
>> On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:
>>
>> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having
>> John Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>>
>> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>>
>> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty
>> period.
>>
>> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in
>> their class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>>
>> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the
>> residual benefit from such a program could very well help to get
>> some guys back into the sport.
>>
>> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>>
>> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into
>> the rules?
>>
>> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse
>> than what we have now?
>>
>> Mike Mueller
>>
>> Customer Services
>>
>> F3aunlimited
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 53
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 15:01:55 -0500
> From: "Dave Burton" <burtona at atmc.net>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
> Message-ID: <00b101ce9de0$1fb42d60$5f1c8820$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I?ve also submitted rules proposal to eliminate the whole points/advancement process. Got nowhere! I won?t do it again!
>
> I?ve decided I?ll fly whichever class I think is appropriate for me regardless of the rules. If a CD wants to disqualify me, please let me know ahead of time so I can save travel cost.
>
> This a set of rules that serve no purpose and probably actually drives down participation. Why some want to keep it is beyond me.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:03 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Amnesty idea
>
>
>
> I wrote an official rules proposal last cycle to allow declaration of class at the beginning of each season...
>
>
>
> Competitors typically fly in 3 to 4 contests per season.. Plenty of time to test one's self in another class and then choose the appropriate class for the next season...No forced advancement, no one stuck in an inappropriate class...
>
>
>
> It was whole-heartedly rejected in favor of the suggestion method that ultimately passed...
>
> Richard
>
> Sent from my mobile device.
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:00 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> Thanks again for the loan of a very nice airplane for the Fat Lake Pattern Meet. Glad Russ was able to buy it, it will be a very good airplane for him.
> The contest was very well run by Bob Wilson and John Hoelscher and other members of the Peoria R/C Modelers. I had a great time flying, meeting new folks and hanging out at the field in Russell Shavitz' new RV parked in the middle of all that corn.
>
> As Scott McHarg has pointed out in this thread and we discussed during the contest, the rule change we proposed last year addressed the problem of being able to move down a class at the end of the year. Others have pointed out that there is a mechanism for doing this now. It involves petitioning the AMA for a change in class. There are two problems with this system. One is that there are some who quit rather than go through the process. Those flyers are lost to us for long periods of time and may never return. I know about that, I was one of them for a decade.
> The second issue is that the AMA VPs seldom(ever?) reject these petitions. They do not know the flyer and his abilities, may(or may not) do a bit of research, and then approve the petition. If they are always approved, what is the function of this process? Why should we waste the time of the DVP? Leave it up to the competitor to recognize that a move back one class would be good for him. Peer pressure will take care of abusers - as it does now, not the AMA.
> John
>
> On 8/19/2013 12:16 PM, mike mueller wrote:
>
> At the Peoria contest this weekend we had the pleasure of having John Gayer from New Mexico attend and fly with us.
>
> We got into a discussion about ideas to grow the sport.
>
> One I brought up and it's nothing new is a one time only Amnesty period.
>
> It would allow any flier who has been a consistent low placer in their class the ability to drop down at the end of a season.
>
> It seems clear to me that this really needs to happen and the residual benefit from such a program could very well help to get some guys back into the sport.
>
> What would it take to get such a program instituted?
>
> What are the barriers that would stop this from being put into the rules?
>
> Is there a potential downside to this that would make it worse than what we have now?
>
>
>
> Mike Mueller
>
> Customer Services
>
>
>
> F3aunlimited
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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