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<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div>You'd be wrong. There are several who are questioning what's going on from several different countries. <br/>
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<font color="#888888"><font color="#888888">Sent from my android device.</font></font><br/><br/>-----Original Message-----<br/>From: "Robert L. Beaubien" <rob@koolsoft.com><br/>To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br/>Sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 5:39 PM<br/>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest<br/><br/></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You may have a point, but I don’t believe anyone here voicing these complaints are in South Africa watching. I could be wrong about that, but I don’t believe
I am. And in the end, it still comes down to the competitors/helpers voicing a complaint down there while it still means something.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79"> Robert Beaubien<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79">District 7 Webmaster<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">"No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ronald Van Putte<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 19, 2013 5:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don't agree. Valid complaints are just that. I was the U.S. judge in 1995 at Kasaoka and many of the judges verbally told the scribes what their scores were. I could could hear them and could not believe some of the scores I heard.
It was like we were judging a different flight. There appeared to be an agenda that I was not privy to. The Prelims were bad enough, but scoring went off the chart BAD in the finals.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Ron<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 19, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Robert L. Beaubien wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thank you Ron. The only ones that should be making these complaints are the competitors themselves.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F4E79"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79"> Robert
Beaubien</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F4E79"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4E79">District
7 Webmaster</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">"No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Ron Hansen<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, August 19, 2013 4:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is this the right time to be complaining about the world judges?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I assume they have internet access and might get wind of these complaints no matter how legit they may be.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think this type of discussion is best left for after the competition is over and maybe should never be discussed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This isn’t helping our team and may actually hurt them now or in the future because we sound like a bunch whiners and sore losers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The world team knows what they are up against and they volunteered willingly.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Let’s let the chips fall where they may.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We will never be able to prevent or statistically mitigate bias.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Many people from other counties are tired of the US seemingly winning everything and that is impossible to overcome.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Good luck to team USA.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ron</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, August 19, 2013 7:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Maybe it just proves that the best judges aren’t very good.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dave</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Keith Hoard<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs. <br>
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Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <<a href="mailto:geobet4evr@gmail.com">geobet4evr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring
awards.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when
they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality
contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were
not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">G.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <<a href="mailto:schale1@verizon.net" target="_blank">schale1@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow" I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect. Lower than they would receive at the Nats never
mind local contests. Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround. Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon? Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't? Or are they upping
the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) . Any 10's given out?<br>
I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.<br>
<br>
Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<o:p></o:p></p>
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