[NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey

J N Hiller jnhiller at earthlink.net
Sat Feb 18 10:19:23 AKST 2012 

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll plug in a reoccurring appointment into my
outlook calendar as a reminder.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Joe Lachowski
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:21 AM
To: NSRCA Discussion List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey

I just want to remind people that this time around the NSRCA did not follow
the traditonal route. In the past, a survey of questions would be sent out
and based on those survey results, proposals were prepared and submitted.
This time, however, proposals were made on limited input from the
membership. Of course this could be blamed on not getting this going say in
September so that there would be sufficient time to generate and get
responses to the survey prior to generating the proposals. As you can see
the result has been a lot of unnecessary heated arguments here. I would like
to make a suggestion that the Judging/Rules Committee generate a standard
procedure with timeframes etc. so this dosen't happen again much like we did
for the Sequence Committee. Don't know if it is possible, but maybe we need
an automatic calendar reminder of some sort that the processes for rules and
new sequences need to get going in the future. Every two years comes up fast
and I think this time around the NSRCA got caught with its pants down.<g>

I may not agree with much of what was proposed, but Scott and crew did the
best they could on short notice.

PS- Ready to dodge bullets when the proposed sequences become public. <g>

  _____

Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 08:46:56 -0700
From: jgghome at comcast.net
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey

Del,

There is no way to create a survey that would please everyone. It was put
together quickly in order to get it out there in front of you. Could it have
been done better? Yes, probably. However, it is always possible to contact
any member of the committee or the board directly if you have constructive
comments or reasoned arguments on either the proposals or the approach taken
to present the proposals.
The problem I have, and responded to, is with the attitude that because I
don't agree with a position, that I must be a liar and a cheat who is
prepared to do anything to promote an agenda. These kind of unfounded
personal attacks have no place in the hobby. Dan was not the first, nor
probably the last, to use this approach. It will not work.

John

On 2/18/2012 7:58 AM, Del wrote:
Not that Dan needs defending ~~ in the past the rules survey's that were
presented to the members at large have not in every case been followed with
the majority of votes. None of those people are currently in office but once
that occurs it does taint the office for some in the community for life. Is
that fair or reasonable.. Of course not but it is real and it does happen
for some. The survey's could always be better presented with options that
aren't even up for choice in many surveys. Which forces people into
answering against their true honest feelings some times in order to
contribute something in hopes of solution  and resolution to the survey.
Better to have a survey than not have one at all.  But in all fairness to
the masses some leeway with their allowing write ins or at least more
choices to get the best grasp of what is truly acceptable to the majority.
It not be easy to create a fair and balanced survey with some hot potatoes
( weight being one e.g.. ) Use the rational that something would be safer if
more weight was allowed shows a bias that something is unsafe because of
being forced to meet a limit. If others are doing it safely either they have
deeper pockets or a bigger imagination. I have never found as a group a more
safer bunch of fliers I don't feel nervous around that precision pattern
pilots. Their have been few and rare exceptions but they were one timers at
local events.

    Del
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gayer <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>
To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey

Dan,

It's really not clear to me what your problem is. At least the appearance is
that you do not trust the BOD to provide you with honest leadership. There
are three members out of five on the rules committee that are current
members of the BOD. This is a hard-working  committee that has shown itself
capable of compromise and turned these proposals around very quickly. It is
one thing for you to disagree vehemently with the committee and another to
accuse the members of lying, hidden agendas and falsifying surveys.
Apparently "volunteer" is also a dirty word but the NSRCA would not function
without them. If this is all true than I'm wasting my time with this post as
I must be part of the problem. Scott has been an honest and open leader of
the committee. He has the full support of the committee and the board.
Having a survey  to obtain input from the membership and the pattern
community as a whole was Scott's idea. The raw survey data is not modifiable
by Scott. He can access it for results and that is all. To suggest that he
or anyone else on the committee would falsify results is very insulting.

The rules committee is operating at the direction of the board. The board
members were presented with the four topics that have evolved as rule change
proposals. The board was presented with the original outline in January that
led to the formation of a committee and has also been presented with the
current versions of the proposals prior to the survey. I'm sure many of the
board members have also seen the vitriol poured on the committee by a few
online. All I have received from the board at this point are words of
encouragement.

This does not mean that all the proposals as presented by the committee will
get a rubber stamp of approval from the board. The committee expects further
modification or possible dismissal  of proposals based on the survey and
opinions/amendments/votes of  board members. No matter whether the proposals
are passed as is, modified or dropped, there will be some unhappy folks on
the board, the committee and the pattern community as there are supporters
and detractors for all the proposals.

I  have always thought that all those great pattern folks I have met around
the country and the world are capable of civil discourse, amiable
disagreement and serious compromise when it comes to matters like these.
What I have seen online about these four proposals  and the imputed ethics
of the committee members has shaken my faith. It has not, however, shaken my
desire to see this task through to the end.

John Gayer
NSRCA Treasurer
Rules Committee member

On 2/17/2012 8:52 PM, Dan Curtis wrote:
Okay, that is it!  I asked because I want to know, I have served on the
board for several years prior and we were asked to prove darn near
everything we did, including surveys.  So if you want to attack with a C'mon
Man so be it.  From the views you expressed on RCU we know how you stand on
the main issue of weight, from the minutes of the meetings for this year we
know that you were able to select "volonteers" to complete your committee,
we know that the preamble was written in a way to present the board as being
for the proposed changes, so we know that some seem to have an agenda.  You
asked for it so you got it.  So it would appear that we have no real
verifiable way of supporting survey results one way or the other.

I seldom post on this forum, since it usually just banter between old
friends and foes and full of insider jokes but these so called proposals are
things that should be discussed on this forum.  They should have been
discussed prior to being placed in any type of survey.  They affect our
sport and I believe your survey will show that they would effect it
adversely.  We have been through all of this before, over and over on
weight.  It seems like a resurecting ghost that we can't keep underground.

The fact that you seem so defensive of your baby also adds to my doubt about
this whole fiasco.  Now, lay off  the attacks and either answer the
questions or ingnore them, your choice Mr. Chairman.

Dan

  _____

From: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com> <mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Fri, February 17, 2012 9:34:22 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey

Dan,
  It was actually 16 times you voted including your original.  I've taken
care of the extras for you.  As far as factual, really?  Do you honestly
think that way?  They will be factual because we are here to serve you.  If
the majority says they don't like something, what would be the purpose of
doing it?  If we wanted to push our own agendas, why even have a survey?
C'mon Man!
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Dan Curtis < warrior523 at att.net
<mailto:warrior523 at att.net> > wrote:
Well, lets hope that is true, I only voted about 15 times so not a problem.

One other question, how will we know the results are factual?

Dan

  _____

From: Scott McHarg < scmcharg at gmail.com <mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com> >
To: General pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Fri, February 17, 2012 9:25:53 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposals Survey

Hi Dan,
   It just makes more work for me (which I'm sure Keith H. would enjoy
greatly as he seems to have his panties in a wad).  We have several filters
in place so I'll just filter out the duplicate entries.  We will know who is
trying to "pad the results".  There were several folks that were having
trouble accessing the system so we had to remove the one time per user.
Either way, only the initial entry will be taken and if a bunch go in just
to screw it up for everyone, we'll just shut it down.  You're right, it
makes it a bit useless when people do that.

Have a good weekend,
Scott
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Dan Curtis < warrior523 at att.net
<mailto:warrior523 at att.net> > wrote:
Guys,

When the survey was put up on the website I filled it out and submitted my
answers.  Then I could not get back in to the survey.  Which I assume was to
stop a person from voting more than once.  Well, I was on the website
earlier tonight and for the heck of it I hit the survey link and low and
behold I was back in and was able to fill the survey out again.  If I hit
submit, I get the results sumitted message.  It appears that a person can
vote as many times as they see fit now.  I had another person or two try the
same thing with the same results.  Is this feature okay or is it making the
survey results a bit useless?

It may still be only countng the first time you voted or submitted but that
is not the way it appears.  Anybody got an answer???

Dan

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--
Scott A. McHarg

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