[NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service atthe fields where you compete

Thu Dec 8 22:04:32 AKST 2011

Hi Gordon, having used Excel at work I would have as well. When I returned
to pattern I was immediately impressed with the depth and detail your
scoring system gave me after every round. It helped in personal assessment
of skill deficiencies. Great! Absolutely great!
As our needs exceeded Excel's capacity, somewhere over 40000 lines as I
remember we migrated to MS Access for remote warehouse inventory management,
continuing to use linked Excel queries mostly to load pivot tables, which
refreshed on opening, for slicing and dicing data. I kind of miss it. It was
fun. Retirement is OK too.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Gordon
Anderson
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 7:47 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service
atthe fields where you compete

Hi All,

I am the guy in D8 that wrote the excel based scoring program. I am pretty
active in D8 and have been for the last 11 years. I was the D8 VP for 4
years and have CDed a number of contests. As a result I have a pretty good
idea how events are run in D8 and I developed the program to fit our needs.
My wife and I run the scoring in a lot of our contests so we really know
what helps reduce the work load of running a contest. I wrote this for fun
because I felt a lot of what was needed already existed in excel and I
thought it would be fun to write a scoring program that used excel
spreadsheet functions and VBA. We have been using it for several years and I
think its worked pretty well.
My advice would be to try new ideas, if you are an active pattern flier and
have a good idea then build it and give it a go. This is the fun part of
pattern for me, you can try things out and see what works. Its real hard to
get group consenses on just about anything. I bet if I would have said a few
years a go that we should build a scoring program using excel, people would
have all kinds of reasons why it would never work.

--Gordon

On Dec 8, 2011, at 7:23 PM, Dave Burton wrote:

So we'd need to have two score systems to use? I don't think this idea is
ready for prime time yet.

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Vicente
"Vince" Bortone
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 9:56 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
the fields where you compete

The use of this device shall be judge option.  Paper pad and pencil  always
available at judge chair.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone
----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller &lt; jnhiller at earthlink.net <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>
&gt;
To: General pattern discussion &lt; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> &gt;
Sent: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 02:23:00 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
the fields where you compete
Often we don't have 3 seconds before the next observable defect needs to be
posted. Now I need to remember all this and sequence downgrade clicking,
monitoring conformations playing catch up while continuing to keep up with
the flight. No thanks, bring on the scratch pad.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Vicente
"Vince" Bortone
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 6:08 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
the fields where you compete
Hit enter and hold for more than 3 seconds for zero score. The headphone
tells you total downgrade every time you hit a down grade. For me uno, dos,
three opppppps cero.
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller &lt; jnhiller at earthlink.net <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>
&gt;
To: General pattern discussion &lt; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> &gt;
Sent: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 01:07:30 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
the fields where you compete
Should two or more mandated downgrades have dedicated buttons? If so how
many or do we need to count the clicks while loading defects. What about
zeros? Keeping track of a number of clicks distracts from concentrating on a
flight that in reality is to be judged from box entry to box exit. I believe
the activity of accumulating deductions in real time is more efficiently
done in our head. The score number can be kicked down from 10 almost
instantly with little thought as we observe ongoing defects. The biggest
distraction is instant recall of maneuver specifics such as mandatory
downgrades, inverted / upright entry and exits and the necessary roll
direction and number of points to meet the requirement. I personally would
have a problem trying to stay on top of all this while counting clicks or
using more than a couple dedicated buttons. Yes it could become second
nature with enough training and practice. Not many of spend that much time
in the judging chair.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Vicente
"Vince" Bortone
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 3:46 PM
To: Marty King
Cc: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
the fields where you compete
What if we have a system with only 3 buttoms. 1 point & 1/2 point deductions
and enter. When you hit enter, the systen gives you next manuever in one ear
head phone and store the deductions of previous manuever. Just dreaming but
could be good. How many times we miss something important because we don't
remember the next manuever? Always keep pencil and paper as backup just in
case. If judging FAI and judge hits 1/2 point will advice in the ear phone
that is not valid option in FAI.
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
----- Original Message -----
From: Marty King &lt; mking46516 at yahoo.com <mailto:mking46516 at yahoo.com>
&gt;
To: General pattern discussion &lt; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> &gt;
Sent: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 22:31:55 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
the fields where you compete
Spending the past 23 years in IT and doing scoring at the both the district
level and Nats I have to chime in.
I have found, that since I use both a tablet and Iphone for all my
communication these days, you can not be 100% sure of a consistent keystroke
on a touch screen. And if you miss just one well placed digit, it distracts
you and sets off a lot of unwanted fumbling. Unless the device wrote to a
file that could be checked by the judge for correctness prior to being sent
over the wireless, there would be a lot of issues. As a point of history we
moved off of Scantron sheets at the Nats so we could do several things. One
big one was to try and put the judges eyes back on the airplane. Second was
to lower the expectation of what scribes, if used, had to do (we were using
outside scribes) Then third was to have three eyes checking the data, the
judges to make sure the score sheet was filled in completely, the data entry
person to input and a data verification person to check the data.
I think the wireless aspect (especially a secure 2.4 or 5.8) may have some
merit, especially if used at the Nats, we could send and import a judges
complete score sheet per pilot. A scratch pad would still be used for the
raw scoring, but as now, it could be transferred instead to a wireless
device instead of a score sheet and sent to the Host scoring PC or server.
This would alleviate the second check of the data at scoring, as no data
would actually be keypunched. You also would not need runners and scoring
would take place even more timely than it already does now. If any questions
would arise (as they do at the Nats) we could go back to the judges scoring
pad on site for final verification. Right now we simply pull the score sheet
and handle the issue.
We had similar issues with ones writing directly on the Scantron score
sheets, not watching the plane, loosing their place.... Before we changed to
hand written score sheets in 2005, I went through the 2003 & 2004 Scantron
sheets and there were a LOT of errors and NO's on them.
If the cell system was perfect ( can you hear me now.....) and it isn't by a
long shot in many areas of the county, sending individual keystrokes would
be a challenge.
One other system some of you may be aware of is in the field of Education.
There are classroom systems out that allow students using handheld clickers
(think of a small TV remote) to enter answers in real time. The data is
collected and displayed, how many right, how many wrong etc. This is based
on both Bluetooth and 2.4 ghz at the present time and prices for systems
range from 500.00 up to 2495.00. The problem still is hitting the correct
keys consistently. When testing the first systems in 2005 we had students
that said they answered correctly, but the software said otherwise. Either
they lied or maybe press the wrong button. There was no way to check, as the
clickers do not hold a file, they were real time.
Real time data entry is fast. However, in competition consistency and
accuracy is a must, but it is hard to achieve both in real time. You need a
way to double check and verify. I know competitors want true and accurate
scores. Otherwise, there is no reason to fly in front of judges.
Just a few thoughts,
Marty
D4
NSRCA 2551
AMA 9945 CD LM
Marty King
574-304-5781
56632 Boss Blvd. Elkhart, Indiana 46516
________________________________
From: Phil S. < chuenkan at comcast.net <mailto:chuenkan at comcast.net> >
To: General pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
the fields where you compete
Jim is correct -- I spent the last 10 years of my career studying
driver distraction (for the FHWA) in a driving simulator. I have said
for a LONG time, that eyes-on-road and hands-on-wheel (with the
"hands-free methods) does NOT mean mind on-driving-task. I have used
the van Putte method, and it WORKS. People can NOT multitask, any more
than a single-core CPU can, and while one task is swapped out, it task
will suffer, no matter how short the swap-time is.
On 12/8/2011 12:32 PM, J N Hiller wrote:

Hear we go
again!

Keeping 'eyes
on airplane' is of little benefit when the brain's concentration or
thought is
elsewhere. The distraction incurred trying to operate a remote devise
will
likely outweigh the benefits, at least for many of us willing to admit
it. I
find writing numbers in a line along the edge of a clipboard to be the
least distracting.

Jim
--
Phil Spelt, KCRC President
AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
SPA 177 Board Member
(865) 435-1476v, (865) 604-0541c
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