[NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at the fields where you compete

Peter Vogel vogel.peter at gmail.com
Thu Dec 8 20:09:21 AKST 2011


Yep.  Worst case, no one likes it and I've had some fun and learned a bit
about Amazon Web Services.  Best case, it's really useful to some %-age of
judges.

Truth is, even the platform that currently generates 200,000,000 in annual
revenue for the company I work for was deemed a "bad idea" when I
originally proposed it, but a few courageous leaders gave me the leeway to
try it.  Now all our new products are built on it and there are over 100
people on the team that started with 1 guy (me).

When I asked the question, I actually hesitated to explain why I was
asking, but I figured I'd get some good input, and I was right.  There are
already 2-3 GREAT ideas I wouldn't have come up with on my own.

Peter+

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Gordon Anderson <gaa at owt.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am the guy in D8 that wrote the excel based scoring program. I am pretty
> active in D8 and have been for the last 11 years. I was the D8 VP for 4
> years and have CDed a number of contests. As a result I have a pretty good
> idea how events are run in D8 and I developed the program to fit our needs.
> My wife and I run the scoring in a lot of our contests so we really know
> what helps reduce the work load of running a contest. I wrote this for fun
> because I felt a lot of what was needed already existed in excel and I
> thought it would be fun to write a scoring program that used excel
> spreadsheet functions and VBA. We have been using it for several years and
> I think its worked pretty well.
> My advice would be to try new ideas, if you are an active pattern flier
> and have a good idea then build it and give it a go. This is the fun part
> of pattern for me, you can try things out and see what works. Its real hard
> to get group consenses on just about anything. I bet if I would have said a
> few years a go that we should build a scoring program using excel, people
> would have all kinds of reasons why it would never work.
>
> --Gordon
>
> On Dec 8, 2011, at 7:23 PM, Dave Burton wrote:
>
> So we'd need to have two score systems to use? I don't think this idea is
> ready for prime time yet.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Vicente
> "Vince" Bortone
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 9:56 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
>
> The use of this device shall be judge option.  Paper pad and pencil  always
> available at judge chair.
>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J N Hiller &lt;jnhiller at earthlink.net&gt;
> To: General pattern discussion &lt;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org&gt;
> Sent: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 02:23:00 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Often we don't have 3 seconds before the next observable defect needs to be
> posted. Now I need to remember all this and sequence downgrade clicking,
> monitoring conformations playing catch up while continuing to keep up with
> the flight. No thanks, bring on the scratch pad.
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Vicente
> "Vince" Bortone
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 6:08 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Hit enter and hold for more than 3 seconds for zero score. The headphone
> tells you total downgrade every time you hit a down grade. For me uno, dos,
> three opppppps cero.
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J N Hiller &lt;jnhiller at earthlink.net&gt;
> To: General pattern discussion &lt;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org&gt;
> Sent: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 01:07:30 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Should two or more mandated downgrades have dedicated buttons? If so how
> many or do we need to count the clicks while loading defects. What about
> zeros? Keeping track of a number of clicks distracts from concentrating on
> a
> flight that in reality is to be judged from box entry to box exit. I
> believe
> the activity of accumulating deductions in real time is more efficiently
> done in our head. The score number can be kicked down from 10 almost
> instantly with little thought as we observe ongoing defects. The biggest
> distraction is instant recall of maneuver specifics such as mandatory
> downgrades, inverted / upright entry and exits and the necessary roll
> direction and number of points to meet the requirement. I personally would
> have a problem trying to stay on top of all this while counting clicks or
> using more than a couple dedicated buttons. Yes it could become second
> nature with enough training and practice. Not many of spend that much time
> in the judging chair.
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Vicente
> "Vince" Bortone
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 3:46 PM
> To: Marty King
> Cc: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> What if we have a system with only 3 buttoms. 1 point & 1/2 point
> deductions
> and enter. When you hit enter, the systen gives you next manuever in one
> ear
> head phone and store the deductions of previous manuever. Just dreaming but
> could be good. How many times we miss something important because we don't
> remember the next manuever? Always keep pencil and paper as backup just in
> case. If judging FAI and judge hits 1/2 point will advice in the ear phone
> that is not valid option in FAI.
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marty King &lt;mking46516 at yahoo.com&gt;
> To: General pattern discussion &lt;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org&gt;
> Sent: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 22:31:55 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Spending the past 23 years in IT and doing scoring at the both the district
> level and Nats I have to chime in.
> I have found, that since I use both a tablet and Iphone for all my
> communication these days, you can not be 100% sure of a consistent
> keystroke
> on a touch screen. And if you miss just one well placed digit, it distracts
> you and sets off a lot of unwanted fumbling. Unless the device wrote to a
> file that could be checked by the judge for correctness prior to being sent
> over the wireless, there would be a lot of issues. As a point of history we
> moved off of Scantron sheets at the Nats so we could do several things. One
> big one was to try and put the judges eyes back on the airplane. Second was
> to lower the expectation of what scribes, if used, had to do (we were using
> outside scribes) Then third was to have three eyes checking the data, the
> judges to make sure the score sheet was filled in completely, the data
> entry
> person to input and a data verification person to check the data.
> I think the wireless aspect (especially a secure 2.4 or 5.8) may have some
> merit, especially if used at the Nats, we could send and import a judges
> complete score sheet per pilot. A scratch pad would still be used for the
> raw scoring, but as now, it could be transferred instead to a wireless
> device instead of a score sheet and sent to the Host scoring PC or server.
> This would alleviate the second check of the data at scoring, as no data
> would actually be keypunched. You also would not need runners and scoring
> would take place even more timely than it already does now. If any
> questions
> would arise (as they do at the Nats) we could go back to the judges scoring
> pad on site for final verification. Right now we simply pull the score
> sheet
> and handle the issue.
> We had similar issues with ones writing directly on the Scantron score
> sheets, not watching the plane, loosing their place.... Before we changed
> to
> hand written score sheets in 2005, I went through the 2003 & 2004 Scantron
> sheets and there were a LOT of errors and NO's on them.
> If the cell system was perfect ( can you hear me now.....) and it isn't by
> a
> long shot in many areas of the county, sending individual keystrokes would
> be a challenge.
> One other system some of you may be aware of is in the field of Education.
> There are classroom systems out that allow students using handheld clickers
> (think of a small TV remote) to enter answers in real time. The data is
> collected and displayed, how many right, how many wrong etc. This is based
> on both Bluetooth and 2.4 ghz at the present time and prices for systems
> range from 500.00 up to 2495.00. The problem still is hitting the correct
> keys consistently. When testing the first systems in 2005 we had students
> that said they answered correctly, but the software said otherwise. Either
> they lied or maybe press the wrong button. There was no way to check, as
> the
> clickers do not hold a file, they were real time.
> Real time data entry is fast. However, in competition consistency and
> accuracy is a must, but it is hard to achieve both in real time. You need a
> way to double check and verify. I know competitors want true and accurate
> scores. Otherwise, there is no reason to fly in front of judges.
> Just a few thoughts,
> Marty
> D4
> NSRCA 2551
> AMA 9945 CD LM
> Marty King
> 574-304-5781
> 56632 Boss Blvd. Elkhart, Indiana 46516
> ________________________________
> From: Phil S. <chuenkan at comcast.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Jim is correct -- I spent the last 10 years of my career studying
> driver distraction (for the FHWA) in a driving simulator. I have said
> for a LONG time, that eyes-on-road and hands-on-wheel (with the
> "hands-free methods) does NOT mean mind on-driving-task. I have used
> the van Putte method, and it WORKS. People can NOT multitask, any more
> than a single-core CPU can, and while one task is swapped out, it task
> will suffer, no matter how short the swap-time is.
> On 12/8/2011 12:32 PM, J N Hiller wrote:
>
> Hear we go
>
> again!
>
> Keeping 'eyes
>
> on airplane' is of little benefit when the brain's concentration or
> thought is
> elsewhere. The distraction incurred trying to operate a remote devise
> will
> likely outweigh the benefits, at least for many of us willing to admit
> it. I
> find writing numbers in a line along the edge of a clipboard to be the
> least distracting.
>
>
> Jim
>
> --
> Phil Spelt, KCRC President
> AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
> SPA 177 Board Member
> (865) 435-1476v, (865) 604-0541c
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