[NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at the fields where you compete

Thu Dec 8 18:46:36 AKST 2011

Hi All,

I am the guy in D8 that wrote the excel based scoring program. I am pretty active in D8 and have been for the last 11 years. I was the D8 VP for 4 years and have CDed a number of contests. As a result I have a pretty good idea how events are run in D8 and I developed the program to fit our needs. My wife and I run the scoring in a lot of our contests so we really know what helps reduce the work load of running a contest. I wrote this for fun because I felt a lot of what was needed already existed in excel and I thought it would be fun to write a scoring program that used excel spreadsheet functions and VBA. We have been using it for several years and I think its worked pretty well.
My advice would be to try new ideas, if you are an active pattern flier and have a good idea then build it and give it a go. This is the fun part of pattern for me, you can try things out and see what works. Its real hard to get group consenses on just about anything. I bet if I would have said a few years a go that we should build a scoring program using excel, people would have all kinds of reasons why it would never work.

--Gordon

On Dec 8, 2011, at 7:23 PM, Dave Burton wrote:

> So we'd need to have two score systems to use? I don't think this idea is
> ready for prime time yet.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Vicente
> "Vince" Bortone
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 9:56 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> 
> The use of this device shall be judge option.  Paper pad and pencil  always
> available at judge chair.    
> 
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J N Hiller &lt;jnhiller at earthlink.net&gt;
> To: General pattern discussion &lt;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org&gt;
> Sent: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 02:23:00 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Often we don't have 3 seconds before the next observable defect needs to be
> posted. Now I need to remember all this and sequence downgrade clicking,
> monitoring conformations playing catch up while continuing to keep up with
> the flight. No thanks, bring on the scratch pad.
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Vicente
> "Vince" Bortone
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 6:08 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Hit enter and hold for more than 3 seconds for zero score. The headphone
> tells you total downgrade every time you hit a down grade. For me uno, dos,
> three opppppps cero.
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J N Hiller &lt;jnhiller at earthlink.net&gt;
> To: General pattern discussion &lt;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org&gt;
> Sent: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 01:07:30 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Should two or more mandated downgrades have dedicated buttons? If so how
> many or do we need to count the clicks while loading defects. What about
> zeros? Keeping track of a number of clicks distracts from concentrating on a
> flight that in reality is to be judged from box entry to box exit. I believe
> the activity of accumulating deductions in real time is more efficiently
> done in our head. The score number can be kicked down from 10 almost
> instantly with little thought as we observe ongoing defects. The biggest
> distraction is instant recall of maneuver specifics such as mandatory
> downgrades, inverted / upright entry and exits and the necessary roll
> direction and number of points to meet the requirement. I personally would
> have a problem trying to stay on top of all this while counting clicks or
> using more than a couple dedicated buttons. Yes it could become second
> nature with enough training and practice. Not many of spend that much time
> in the judging chair.
> Jim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Vicente
> "Vince" Bortone
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 3:46 PM
> To: Marty King
> Cc: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> What if we have a system with only 3 buttoms. 1 point & 1/2 point deductions
> and enter. When you hit enter, the systen gives you next manuever in one ear
> head phone and store the deductions of previous manuever. Just dreaming but
> could be good. How many times we miss something important because we don't
> remember the next manuever? Always keep pencil and paper as backup just in
> case. If judging FAI and judge hits 1/2 point will advice in the ear phone
> that is not valid option in FAI.
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marty King &lt;mking46516 at yahoo.com&gt;
> To: General pattern discussion &lt;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org&gt;
> Sent: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 22:31:55 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Spending the past 23 years in IT and doing scoring at the both the district
> level and Nats I have to chime in.
> I have found, that since I use both a tablet and Iphone for all my
> communication these days, you can not be 100% sure of a consistent keystroke
> on a touch screen. And if you miss just one well placed digit, it distracts
> you and sets off a lot of unwanted fumbling. Unless the device wrote to a
> file that could be checked by the judge for correctness prior to being sent
> over the wireless, there would be a lot of issues. As a point of history we
> moved off of Scantron sheets at the Nats so we could do several things. One
> big one was to try and put the judges eyes back on the airplane. Second was
> to lower the expectation of what scribes, if used, had to do (we were using
> outside scribes) Then third was to have three eyes checking the data, the
> judges to make sure the score sheet was filled in completely, the data entry
> person to input and a data verification person to check the data.
> I think the wireless aspect (especially a secure 2.4 or 5.8) may have some
> merit, especially if used at the Nats, we could send and import a judges
> complete score sheet per pilot. A scratch pad would still be used for the
> raw scoring, but as now, it could be transferred instead to a wireless
> device instead of a score sheet and sent to the Host scoring PC or server.
> This would alleviate the second check of the data at scoring, as no data
> would actually be keypunched. You also would not need runners and scoring
> would take place even more timely than it already does now. If any questions
> would arise (as they do at the Nats) we could go back to the judges scoring
> pad on site for final verification. Right now we simply pull the score sheet
> and handle the issue.
> We had similar issues with ones writing directly on the Scantron score
> sheets, not watching the plane, loosing their place.... Before we changed to
> hand written score sheets in 2005, I went through the 2003 & 2004 Scantron
> sheets and there were a LOT of errors and NO's on them.
> If the cell system was perfect ( can you hear me now.....) and it isn't by a
> long shot in many areas of the county, sending individual keystrokes would
> be a challenge.
> One other system some of you may be aware of is in the field of Education.
> There are classroom systems out that allow students using handheld clickers
> (think of a small TV remote) to enter answers in real time. The data is
> collected and displayed, how many right, how many wrong etc. This is based
> on both Bluetooth and 2.4 ghz at the present time and prices for systems
> range from 500.00 up to 2495.00. The problem still is hitting the correct
> keys consistently. When testing the first systems in 2005 we had students
> that said they answered correctly, but the software said otherwise. Either
> they lied or maybe press the wrong button. There was no way to check, as the
> clickers do not hold a file, they were real time.
> Real time data entry is fast. However, in competition consistency and
> accuracy is a must, but it is hard to achieve both in real time. You need a
> way to double check and verify. I know competitors want true and accurate
> scores. Otherwise, there is no reason to fly in front of judges.
> Just a few thoughts,
> Marty
> D4
> NSRCA 2551
> AMA 9945 CD LM
> Marty King
> 574-304-5781
> 56632 Boss Blvd. Elkhart, Indiana 46516
> ________________________________
> From: Phil S. <chuenkan at comcast.net>
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Quick question re: cellular data service at
> the fields where you compete
> Jim is correct -- I spent the last 10 years of my career studying
> driver distraction (for the FHWA) in a driving simulator. I have said
> for a LONG time, that eyes-on-road and hands-on-wheel (with the
> "hands-free methods) does NOT mean mind on-driving-task. I have used
> the van Putte method, and it WORKS. People can NOT multitask, any more
> than a single-core CPU can, and while one task is swapped out, it task
> will suffer, no matter how short the swap-time is.
> On 12/8/2011 12:32 PM, J N Hiller wrote:
>> Hear we go
> again!
>> Keeping 'eyes
> on airplane' is of little benefit when the brain's concentration or
> thought is
> elsewhere. The distraction incurred trying to operate a remote devise
> will
> likely outweigh the benefits, at least for many of us willing to admit
> it. I
> find writing numbers in a line along the edge of a clipboard to be the
> least distracting.
>> 
>> Jim
> --
> Phil Spelt, KCRC President
> AMA 1294 Scientific Leader Member
> SPA 177 Board Member
> (865) 435-1476v, (865) 604-0541c
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20111209/513e6391/attachment.html>