[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference

Wed Aug 18 16:55:01 AKDT 2010

Looking forward to that article Matt!  Show 'em how it's done!

Ed

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:43:06 -0400
From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference

There is very light and simple solution to this problem that may be retro-fitted. Credit goes to Wist Model. I am preparing a How To for the KFactor and one of these days I will complete it and send it in. It requires different design struts than the common fare one gets with these planes. 

I would love for any mfr to try the approach since the structure could be even lighter and stronger if done when the fuse is being molded

MattK

-----Original Message-----

From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>

To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 6:43 pm

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference

Valid concern. My experience is that the landing gear support system is the weakest part of electric-powered airplanes. 

Ron 

On Aug 18, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Ron Hansen wrote: 

> I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed > to make 

> weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average > intermediate 

> or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a > valid 

> concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm > in favor 

> of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to > slightly raise 

> the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for 

> example. 

> 

> -----Original Message----- 

> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 

> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N > Hiller 

> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM 

> To: General pattern discussion 

> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference 

> 

> I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better > all the 

> time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a > wood 

> airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power > system or 

> empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available > would be 

> helpful in understanding the distribution of weight. 

> Thanks 

> Jim Hiller 

> 

> -----Original Message----- 

> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 

> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Dave 

> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM 

> To: 'General pattern discussion' 

> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference 

> 

> And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, > which saves 

> substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available > that are 

> RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which > glow / 

> electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet > anyway - my 

> opinion. 

> 

> My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more > than the 

> Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it > were any 

> lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 > to 4350 

> lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used 

> lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz). 

> 

> Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming > more 

> common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without 

> careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a 

> non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are > coming on 

> strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce. 

> 

> Regards, 

> 

> Dave 

> 

> -----Original Message----- 

> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 

> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of > Atwood, Mark 

> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM 

> To: General pattern discussion 

> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference 

> 

> I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe given that an > all 

> electric airframe is much lighter. 

> 

> My answer to the question? There is almost no difference. I'm > flying a 

> full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, > 8oz with 

> very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed 10lbs > 6oz and 

> 10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that). 

> 

> I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are > optimized for 

> weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the > designs still 

> had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that 

> evolution is not complete yet either. 

> 

> 

> 

> Mark Atwood 

> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President 

> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 

> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102 

> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com | www.paragon-inc.com 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message----- 

> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 

> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron > Van Putte 

> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM 

> To: General pattern discussion 

> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference 

> 

> Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos 

> are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor 

> weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than others. 

> 

> My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete 

> electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding 

> the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces. 

> 

> Ron 

> 

> On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote: 

> 

>> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation 

>> what is the 

>> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and 

>> the 

>> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane? 

>> Mike 

>> 

>> -----Original Message----- 

>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 

>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron 

>> Van Putte 

>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM 

>> To: General pattern discussion 

>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference 

>> 

>> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric. 

>> 

>> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier 

>> than one for electric power, because of the vibration. The 

>> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow, you 

>> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel 

>> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is 

>> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop, 

>> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else 

>> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight 

>> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select 

>> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an 

>> electric-powered airplane. 

>> 

>> Ron 

>> 

>> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote: 

>> 

>>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the 

>>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between 

>>> glow and electric. 

>>> 

>>> Mike 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- 

>>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave 

>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM 

>>> To: 'General pattern discussion' 

>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 12 oz +/-4 oz. 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things - 

>>> 

>>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX 

>>> power system? 

>>> 

>>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more 

>>> beef for glow? 

>>> 

>>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX 

>>> power? 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built 

>>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most part, 

>>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow 

>>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4 

>>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz. 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Regards, 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Dave 

>>> 

>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca- 

>>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dr Mike 

>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM 

>>> To: 'General pattern discussion' 

>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7 

>>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric? 

>>> 

>>> Thanks 

>>> 

>>> Mike 

>>> 

>>> _______________________________________________ 

>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list 

>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 

>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 

>> 

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