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<body class='hmmessage'>Looking forward to that article Matt! Show 'em how it's done!<br><br>Ed<br><br><hr>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:43:06 -0400<br>From: rcmaster199@aol.com<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br><br><font color=black face=arial></font>
<div style="font-family:arial;color:black;font-size:10pt"><span style="display:inline-block"></span>There is very light and simple solution to this problem that may be retro-fitted. Credit goes to Wist Model. I am preparing a How To for the KFactor and one of these days I will complete it and send it in. It requires different design struts than the common fare one gets with these planes. </div>
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<div style="font-family:arial;color:black;font-size:10pt">I would love for any mfr to try the approach since the structure could be even lighter and stronger if done when the fuse is being molded</div>
<div style="font-family:arial;color:black;font-size:10pt"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial;color:black;font-size:10pt">MattK</div>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte@cox.net><br>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 6:43 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
<div style="background-color:#fff;font-family:Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;color:#000;font-size:12px" id="ecxAOLMsgPart_0_807fbf84-9873-40ec-a2c5-1bbd01edee35">Valid concern. My experience is that the landing gear support system is the weakest part of electric-powered airplanes. <br>
<br>
Ron <br>
<br>
On Aug 18, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Ron Hansen wrote: <br>
<br>
> I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed > to make <br>
> weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average > intermediate <br>
> or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a > valid <br>
> concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm > in favor <br>
> of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to > slightly raise <br>
> the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for <br>
> example. <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message----- <br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of J N > Hiller <br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM <br>
> To: General pattern discussion <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference <br>
> <br>
> I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better > all the <br>
> time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a > wood <br>
> airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power > system or <br>
> empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available > would be <br>
> helpful in understanding the distribution of weight. <br>
> Thanks <br>
> Jim Hiller <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message----- <br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On</a> Behalf Of Dave <br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM <br>
> To: 'General pattern discussion' <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference <br>
> <br>
> And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, > which saves <br>
> substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available > that are <br>
> RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which > glow / <br>
> electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet > anyway - my <br>
> opinion. <br>
> <br>
> My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more > than the <br>
> Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it > were any <br>
> lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 > to 4350 <br>
> lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used <br>
> lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz). <br>
> <br>
> Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming > more <br>
> common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without <br>
> careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a <br>
> non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are > coming on <br>
> strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce. <br>
> <br>
> Regards, <br>
> <br>
> Dave <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message----- <br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of > Atwood, Mark <br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM <br>
> To: General pattern discussion <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference <br>
> <br>
> I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe given that an > all <br>
> electric airframe is much lighter. <br>
> <br>
> My answer to the question? There is almost no difference. I'm > flying a <br>
> full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, > 8oz with <br>
> very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed 10lbs > 6oz and <br>
> 10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that). <br>
> <br>
> I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are > optimized for <br>
> weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the > designs still <br>
> had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that <br>
> evolution is not complete yet either. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Mark Atwood <br>
> Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President <br>
> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 <br>
> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102 <br>
> <a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> | <a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message----- <br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ron > Van Putte <br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM <br>
> To: General pattern discussion <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference <br>
> <br>
> Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos <br>
> are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor <br>
> weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than others. <br>
> <br>
> My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete <br>
> electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding <br>
> the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces. <br>
> <br>
> Ron <br>
> <br>
> On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote: <br>
> <br>
>> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation <br>
>> what is the <br>
>> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and <br>
>> the <br>
>> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane? <br>
>> Mike <br>
>> <br>
>> -----Original Message----- <br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
>> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ron <br>
>> Van Putte <br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM <br>
>> To: General pattern discussion <br>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference <br>
>> <br>
>> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric. <br>
>> <br>
>> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier <br>
>> than one for electric power, because of the vibration. The <br>
>> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow, you <br>
>> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel <br>
>> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is <br>
>> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop, <br>
>> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else <br>
>> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight <br>
>> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select <br>
>> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an <br>
>> electric-powered airplane. <br>
>> <br>
>> Ron <br>
>> <br>
>> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote: <br>
>> <br>
>>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the <br>
>>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between <br>
>>> glow and electric. <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Mike <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-?">mailto:nsrca-</a> <br>
>>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Dave <br>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM <br>
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion' <br>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> 12 oz +/-4 oz. <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things - <br>
>>> <br>
>>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX <br>
>>> power system? <br>
>>> <br>
>>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more <br>
>>> beef for glow? <br>
>>> <br>
>>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX <br>
>>> power? <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built <br>
>>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most part, <br>
>>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow <br>
>>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4 <br>
>>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz. <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Regards, <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Dave <br>
>>> <br>
>>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-?">mailto:nsrca-</a> <br>
>>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Dr Mike <br>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM <br>
>>> To: 'General pattern discussion' <br>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7 <br>
>>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric? <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Thanks <br>
>>> <br>
>>> Mike <br>
>>> <br>
>>> _______________________________________________ <br>
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>
>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <br>
>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a> <br>
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