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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I'm flying Intermediate for the first year. I can't say that
I'd like to see a 4-point in Intermediate. Intermediate over Sportsman adds
outside pushes (outside loop from top and double-I with half rolls), inverted
flight (top of square loop, top of triangle, half outside turnaround), and a
crossbox maneuver (humpty with options). That's a lot to work with and master
right there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Also, having just completed 2 years of Sportsman, if anything,
it might make sense to make it harder, not easier. When I was looking at
flying pattern, I thought the routine was easy (on paper). Flying it is
anything but easy, but if you look at the Basic routine in IMAC, someone flying
that is going to look at Sportsman and think that is below them. It might not
be a bad idea to implement the double-I with half rolls in Sportsman and mebby
some other minor changes to make it seem a little harder without really
increasing the difficulty. Mebby take one of the Exit Boxes and replace it
with a humpty??!? (Between the 45 down and the vertical upline on center would
be a good place for a humpty. Nothing is rushed there.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>- Robert Beaubien<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>- NSRCA District 7 Webmaster<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>"No trees were harmed in the sending of this message,
however a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I’d like to hear from the Sportsman. Do you want a 4
point in Intermediate, or is Intermediate intimidating enough? Consider going
from a partial turnaround sequence to a full turnaround sequence? How
about in a 20 mph blow in crosswind? Are you ready to trim your plane for
knife edge flight?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>krishlan fitzsimmons<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think a 4 point would be great for intermediate. It gets
you ready for a slow roll in advanced as it helps you learn the rudder. You
most likely aren't going to learn to roll comfortably with rudder in
intermediate without being forced to learn it. I didn't use rudder till
advanced, as that's when I was forced to learn it. <br>
<br>
IMO, sportsman is the entry class. Exit the box. That's fine. Could help with
the nerves. Intermediate should start to learn rudder, and rudder corrections.
Not master them, but start to learn them. A 4 point could help with this.
Advanced is where you master rudder corrections (inverted and upright) which
sets you up nicely for masters. Masters should be somewhat difficult as it is a
destination class. There should be a or some integrated rolling elements (point
of continuous). You would find less people in Masters if they weren't ready for
it. And it would make the move to FAI much easier. <br>
<br>
Back to painting...<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><b><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#0000BF'>Chris
</span></b></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
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style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> "Atwood, Mark"
<atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tue, October 20, 2009 2:22:06 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>No, I’ll agree to disagree. I think you begin using
roll with rudder as you’re LEAVING intermediate. Putting in a slow
roll would require you to use it upon entry into that class which means you
would need to be doing it at the end of sportsman which is almost ridiculous.
When you’re rolling comfortably with rudder, it’s time for Advanced
and point and slow rolls. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite
130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>RON
HANSEN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Mark you just supported my
point. Sean is learning to use elevator on his rolls in sportsman as he
should before moving up. I bet most sportsman pilots don't use elevator
at all before moving up (I'm guilty of that). I also have seen a lot of
intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without using rudder. I've even had folks
tell me not to use rudder on my 2 rolls. I believe this is bad
advice. Slow rolls and point rolls in intermediate would force
intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder before moving up.
Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more complicated rolling maneuvers
(yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than masters) would lessen the gap
between classes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I've never used crack. Hg
yes everyday twice a day:)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>, jpavlick@idseng.com<br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ron?? You’re smokin’ crack again. STOP
that… Or wait, was that playing with
Mercury…”No ill effects”…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You’ve been flying Intermediate for several years and
you’re close to moving out of it. On the other end though are the
guys just leaving Sportsman. Adding point roll’s or any of the things
you mention would make their heads explode. I’m
just trying to get Sean (son) to roll well with elevator and not pitch up 20deg
before starting. We’ll get that down in Sportsman, but we’ll
save learning to slow roll, or even add rudder through the roll in a ½ reverse
Cuban for Intermediate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Rolling with rudder is usually the last thing someone perfects
as they’re cleaning up the hardward in Intermediate getting ready to move
onto Advanced. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:#76923C'>Mark Atwood</span></b><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;color:navy'><br>
</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>President<br>
</span><b><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Paragon Consulting</span></i></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#548DD4'>mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#76923C'>IT Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff
Augmentation. </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>RON
HANSEN<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jpavlick@idseng.com; General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>When I suggested that
intermediate and advanced be more difficult what I was suggesting was that we
need to build up more gradually. For an example, I believe two horizontal
rolls done using rudder and elevator is more difficult than one slow roll or
one 4 pt roll. I learned to roll using rubber and elevator by starting
with a 4 pt roll. I've heard others doing the same. I agree that
this can be taken to extremes. For example, I've heard folks suggest that
intermediate add 3 rolls. I believe this will cause pilots to drop the
rudder and only use elevator which I believe is detrimental later on (all rolls
should include rudder and elevator). Maybe move the 4 pt roll and the
slow roll down to intermediate and add some more complicated rolling maneuvers
such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to inverted or 2 half rolls reversed
knife edged to knife edge. These or similar changes would close the
gap between the various classes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick@idseng.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
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<p class=MsoNormal>Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is a
good thing, I think. As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box
maneuvers (like a Humpty) then I don't think it's asking too much of a
Sportsman pilot to try to keep things in the box until they get a break (box
exit). This is very good at preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as
Pete said, yet it gives them some way to correct their lines.What tends to
happen to ALL of us is this: One little error moves your line. Then another
moves your line some more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines
smoothly and / or simply not make those errors in the first place (or at
least make them to a lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box
exits, you only have cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman
doesn't have any cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line?
With box exits of course. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>As a few people have said - and I say this all the time:
the sequence you fly contains the maneuvers which you are <em>judged</em> on.
This doesn't mean that you can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences
when you practice. Do you guys just go to the field and fly <em>your</em>
sequence over and over <em>every</em> time? If so then I think you're
missing out on something very important. The difficulty between Masters and
Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes
that must deal with this range of skills. It's nearly impossible to
make each progression seamless. You <em>must </em>learn at least some new
skills on your own. You can't expect that by repeatedly flying Advanced,
you'll somehow magically be prepared to fly Masters when you point out. Trust
me, you won't. VBG<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>John Pavlick<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
--- On <b>Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <i><pcosky@comcast.net></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Pete Cosky <pcosky@comcast.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=yiv444165611>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I
partially agree with your last post but those building blocks have to
come from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out of Sportsman 4 years
ago and then stopped flying to help raise my son until this year when I
got to fly again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly but at least I had an
idea of how it all had to go together because I learned those building blocks
in Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened in my particular case
it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and probably would have
taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If
a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do, then take the time to
practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go and burn a few tanks
flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My
opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays a good foundation for
the progression in the classes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
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<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date: 10/05/09
06:19:00</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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</div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2415 - Release Date: 10/05/09
06:19:00</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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