[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Tue Oct 20 14:02:02 AKDT 2009

“Then they should consider adjusting the sequence development guidlines.”

************I’ll say it again, the development guidelines were based on
NSRCA survey results and are not cast in stone, they have been adjusted to
reflect rule changes, and they can be adjusted again after the next survey.
Whether I, Richard Lewis, or the majority of the current sequence committee
agree with every aspect of the guidance, it would be wrong to tweak the
guidance based on personal preference, or limited feedback.  The guidance
was based on the majority response of the NSRCA, and the Sequence Committee
is only a small percentage.  And I would note, for many years the guidance
was passed among the sequence committee members verbally, handed down
through the generations so to speak.  Several cycles ago, we had a very
large and active committee (about 24 members to recall), and it was out of
that committee that the written guidance was penned.

As other have mentioned.  The hardest maneuver in sportsman is the cuban
eight - cobra combo.  Likewise, the stall turn - top hat in intermediate.
Both were ill conceived.  The sequence committee should focus focus on these
issues and put less emphasis on individual maneuvers.

***********Again, I’m sure the prior Sequence Committee appreciates your
feedback.  And again, the current Sequence Committee has addressed these
issues. 

I'll just keep pissin' in the wind:)

***********And I’ll make sure to stand upwind, should I see you at the
field.  <G>

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:59 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Then they should consider adjusting the sequence development guidlines.

As other have mentioned.  The hardest maneuver in sportsman is the cuban
eight - cobra combo.  Likewise, the stall turn - top hat in intermediate.
Both were ill conceived.  The sequence committee should focus focus on these
issues and put less emphasis on individual maneuvers.

I'll just keep pissin' in the wind:)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Lewis" <humptybump at sbcglobal.net>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:17:37 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

I made the same point a while back regarding coordinated rolls, just before
I "volunteered" <grin> to be on the sequence committee.  I also got the same
hair on fire repsonses from some of the list regulars...sometimes I think we
lose sight of how many pattern fliers are out there that aren't on this list
or rarely contribute to the list and it is easy to confuse the opinions of a
narrow range of vocal list regulars with the overall sentiments of pattern
fliers at large.

Four point rolls and slow rolls are much better teaching tools than blazing
through 2 or 3 consecutive rolls.   I use my Dad as an example....his head
literally does explode at contests when flying Sportsman in front of judges
and I would much rather coach him through learning to use rudder in a 4
point roll  than telling him to nose it up a litlte, jam on the elevator and
try to give a bit of down at the right time in 2 consecutive rolls.  Heck
I've even seen him try 4 point rolls on his own when sport flying just for
fun.

Unfortunately they are not allowed in the sequence development guidelines
for intermediate that are being used today to steer the sequence development
process and I was not going to be the crusader that challenged this in the
sequence contruction guidelines in this round of sequence development.  I
think that my contributions to the group brought a fresh set of opinions and
eyes to the process and I hope that the sequences that are presented will be
approached with an open mind from the armchair quarterback club.

Richard Lewis

  _____  

From: RON HANSEN <rcpilot at wowway.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:39:36 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Mark you just supported my point.  Sean is learning to use elevator on his
rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up.  I bet most sportsman
pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of that).  I
also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without using
rudder.  I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2 rolls.  I
believe this is bad advice.  Slow rolls and point rolls in intermediate
would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder before moving
up.  Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more complicated rolling
maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than masters) would lessen
the gap between classes.

I've never used crack.  Hg yes everyday twice a day:)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,
jpavlick at idseng.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Ron??  You’re smokin’ crack again.  STOP that
    Or wait, was that playing
with Mercury
”No ill effects”

You’ve been flying Intermediate for several years and you’re close to moving
out of it.  On the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman.
Adding point roll’s or any of the things you mention would make their heads
explode.     I’m just trying to get Sean (son) to roll well with elevator
and not pitch up 20deg before starting.  We’ll get that down in Sportsman,
but we’ll save learning to slow roll, or even add rudder through the roll in
a ½ reverse Cuban for Intermediate.

Rolling with rudder is usually the last thing someone perfects as they’re
cleaning up the hardward in Intermediate getting ready to move onto
Advanced.  

Mark Atwood
President
Paragon Consulting
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com

IT Solution Providers:  Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation. 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of RON HANSEN
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:37 PM
To: jpavlick at idseng.com; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult what I was
suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually.  For an example, I
believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more
difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll.  I learned to roll using
rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll.  I've heard others doing
the same.  I agree that this can be taken to extremes.  For example, I've
heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls.  I believe this will
cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is
detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator).  Maybe
move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some more
complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to
inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge.   These or
similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is a good thing, I think.
As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box maneuvers (like a Humpty) then
I don't think it's asking too much of a Sportsman pilot to try to keep
things in the box until they get a break (box exit). This is very good at
preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as Pete said, yet it gives
them some way to correct their lines.What tends to happen to ALL of us is
this: One little error moves your line. Then another moves your line some
more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines smoothly and / or
simply not make those errors in the first place (or at least make them to a
lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box exits, you only have
cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman doesn't have any
cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line? With box exits of
course. 

As a few people have said - and I say this all the time: the sequence you
fly contains the maneuvers which you are judged on. This doesn't mean that
you can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do
you guys just go to the field and fly your sequence over and over every
time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important. The
difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat
extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of
skills. It's nearly impossible to  make each progression seamless. You must
learn at least some new skills on your own. You can't expect that by
repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow magically be prepared to fly
Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't. VBG

John Pavlick

--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote:

From: Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM

I partially agree with your last post but those building blocks have to come
from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out of Sportsman 4 years ago and
then stopped flying to help raise my son until this year when I got to fly
again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly but at least I had an idea of
how it all had to go together because I learned those building blocks in
Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened in my particular case
it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and probably would have
taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.

If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do, then take the time
to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go and burn a few tanks
flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else. 

My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays a good foundation
for the progression in the classes.

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