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<div class=Section1>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>“Then they should consider adjusting the sequence
development guidlines.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>************I’ll say it again, the development guidelines
were based on NSRCA survey results and are not cast in stone, they have been
adjusted to reflect rule changes, and they can be adjusted again after the next
survey. Whether I, Richard Lewis, or the majority of the current sequence
committee agree with every aspect of the guidance, it would be wrong to tweak the
guidance based on personal preference, or limited feedback. The guidance was
based on the majority response of the NSRCA, and the Sequence Committee is only
a small percentage. And I would note, for many years the guidance was passed
among the sequence committee members verbally, handed down through the
generations so to speak. Several cycles ago, we had a very large and active
committee (about 24 members to recall), and it was out of that committee that
the written guidance was penned.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>As other have mentioned. The hardest maneuver in sportsman
is the cuban eight - cobra combo. Likewise, the stall turn - top hat in
intermediate. Both were ill conceived. The sequence committee
should focus focus on these issues and put less emphasis on individual
maneuvers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>***********Again, I’m sure the prior Sequence Committee
appreciates your feedback. And again, the current Sequence Committee has
addressed these issues. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>I'll just keep pissin' in the wind:)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>***********And I’ll make sure to
stand upwind, should I see you at the field. <G><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><br>
Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>RON HANSEN<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
4:59 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Then they should consider adjusting the sequence development
guidlines.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>As other have mentioned. The hardest maneuver in sportsman
is the cuban eight - cobra combo. Likewise, the stall turn - top hat in
intermediate. Both were ill conceived. The sequence committee
should focus focus on these issues and put less emphasis on individual
maneuvers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>I'll just keep pissin' in the wind:)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Richard Lewis" <humptybump@sbcglobal.net><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:17:37 PM GMT -05:00 <st1:country-region
w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>/<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I made the same point a while back
regarding coordinated rolls, just before I "volunteered" <grin>
to be on the sequence committee. I also got the same hair on fire
repsonses from some of the list regulars...sometimes I think we lose sight
of how many pattern fliers are out there that aren't on this list or rarely
contribute to the list and it is easy to confuse the opinions of a narrow
range of vocal list regulars with the overall sentiments of pattern fliers at
large.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Four point rolls and slow rolls are much
better teaching tools than blazing through 2 or 3 consecutive
rolls. I use my Dad as an example....his head literally does
explode at contests when flying Sportsman in front of judges and I would much
rather coach him through learning to use rudder in a 4 point roll than
telling him to nose it up a litlte, jam on the elevator and try to give a bit
of down at the right time in 2 consecutive rolls. Heck I've even seen him
try 4 point rolls on his own when sport flying just for fun.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Unfortunately they are not allowed in the
sequence development guidelines for intermediate that are being used today to
steer the sequence development process and I was not going to be the
crusader that challenged this in the sequence contruction guidelines in
this round of sequence development. I think that my contributions to the
group brought a fresh set of opinions and eyes to the process and I hope that
the sequences that are presented will be approached with an open mind from
the armchair quarterback club.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Richard Lewis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> RON HANSEN
<rcpilot@wowway.com><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
2:39:36 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Mark you just supported my point. Sean is learning to use
elevator on his rolls in sportsman as he should before moving up. I bet
most sportsman pilots don't use elevator at all before moving up (I'm guilty of
that). I also have seen a lot of intermediate pilots fly 2 rolls without
using rudder. I've even had folks tell me not to use rudder on my 2
rolls. I believe this is bad advice. Slow rolls and point rolls in
intermediate would force intermediate pilots to learn to roll with rudder
before moving up. Requiring advanced pilots to learn slightly more
complicated rolling maneuvers (yet less complicated rolling maneuvers than
masters) would lessen the gap between classes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>I've never used crack. Hg yes everyday twice a day:)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>, jpavlick@idseng.com<br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 2:32:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Ron??
You’re smokin’ crack again. STOP
that… Or wait, was that playing with
Mercury…”No ill effects”…</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>You’ve been
flying Intermediate for several years and you’re close to moving out of
it. On the other end though are the guys just leaving Sportsman.
Adding point roll’s or any of the things you mention would make their
heads explode. I’m just trying to get Sean (son)
to roll well with elevator and not pitch up 20deg before starting.
We’ll get that down in Sportsman, but we’ll save learning to slow
roll, or even add rudder through the roll in a ˝ reverse Cuban for Intermediate.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Rolling with rudder
is usually the last thing someone perfects as they’re cleaning up the
hardward in Intermediate getting ready to move onto Advanced. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color="#76923c" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;color:#76923C;font-weight:bold'>Mark Atwood</span></font></b><font
size=4 color=navy><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:navy'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:#1F497D'>President<br>
</span></font><b><i><font size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Paragon Consulting</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'><br>
office ~ 440-684-3101 ext. 102</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><u><font size=2 color="#548dd4" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#548DD4'>mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</span></font></u><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#76923c" face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:#76923C;font-weight:bold'>IT
Solution Providers: Custom Software Development. Staff Augmentation. </span></font></b><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>RON HANSEN<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 20, 2009
2:37 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> jpavlick@idseng.com; General
pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>When I suggested that intermediate and advanced be more difficult
what I was suggesting was that we need to build up more gradually. For an
example, I believe two horizontal rolls done using rudder and elevator is more
difficult than one slow roll or one 4 pt roll. I learned to roll using
rubber and elevator by starting with a 4 pt roll. I've heard others doing
the same. I agree that this can be taken to extremes. For example,
I've heard folks suggest that intermediate add 3 rolls. I believe this
will cause pilots to drop the rudder and only use elevator which I believe is
detrimental later on (all rolls should include rudder and elevator). Maybe
move the 4 pt roll and the slow roll down to intermediate and add some more
complicated rolling maneuvers such as 2 half rolls reversed inverted to
inverted or 2 half rolls reversed knife edged to knife edge. These
or similar changes would close the gap between the various classes.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick@idseng.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:59:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Having the turnarounds AND box exits in Sportsman is
a good thing, I think. As long as the turnarounds are not cross-box
maneuvers (like a Humpty) then I don't think it's asking too much of a
Sportsman pilot to try to keep things in the box until they get a break (box
exit). This is very good at preparing them for Intermediate (NO box exits) as
Pete said, yet it gives them some way to correct their lines.What tends to
happen to ALL of us is this: One little error moves your line. Then another
moves your line some more. Until you've learned how to correct your lines
smoothly and / or simply not make those errors in the first place (or at
least make them to a lesser degree) the errors accumulate and without box
exits, you only have cross-box maneuvers to help you correct them. Sportsman
doesn't have any cross-box maneuvers so how would they correct their line?
With box exits of course. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>As a few people have said - and I say this all the
time: the sequence you fly contains the maneuvers which you are <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">judged</font></i></em> on. This doesn't mean that you
can't fly different maneuvers and / or sequences when you practice. Do you
guys just go to the field and fly <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">your</font></i></em>
sequence over and over <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">every</font></i></em>
time? If so then I think you're missing out on something very important.
The difficulty between Masters and Sportsman is (and should be) somewhat
extreme. Yet there are only 4 classes that must deal with this range of
skills. It's nearly impossible to make each progression seamless. You <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">must </font></i></em>learn at least some new skills on
your own. You can't expect that by repeatedly flying Advanced, you'll somehow
magically be prepared to fly Masters when you point out. Trust me, you won't.
VBG<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>John Pavlick<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Tue, 10/20/09, Pete Cosky <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><pcosky@comcast.net></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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From: Pete Cosky <pcosky@comcast.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 1:04 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I partially agree with your last post but those
building blocks have to come from somewhere. From my experience, I moved out
of Sportsman 4 years ago and then stopped flying to help raise my son
until this year when I got to fly again in Intermediate. My flights were ugly
but at least I had an idea of how it all had to go together because I learned
those building blocks in Sportsman. IF what is proposed were to have happened
in my particular case it would have been quite the obstacle to overcome and
probably would have taken some of the fun out flying pattern for me.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If a pilot needs work on geometry, and I know I sure do,
then take the time to practice the given maneuver outside the sequence. Go
and burn a few tanks flying the problem maneuvers and nothing else.
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>My opinion is Sportsman is fine the way it is and it lays
a good foundation for the progression in the classes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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