[NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

Wed May 13 13:48:14 AKDT 2009

Also for clarification, I beleive we need be rid of forced advancment rules.

I do feel strongly that you need to limit movement to UP only during a single season.

I also replied directly to Anthony that the current forced advancment rule covers his case very well and that he would need to average more than 25 points a season over four seasons to point out of Advanced.  A casual, non-competitive pilot can easily remain permanently in a class under the current rules. 

Richard 

________________________________
From: Anthony Abdullah <aabdu at sbcglobal.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:18:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

Just for clarification, my point wasn't that I want to move back to intermediate. it was to illustrate a scenario where forced advancement would be an issue. 
For example; if I earned 5 to 10 points a year finishing fourth or fifth or worse while going to grad school or or changing jobs or whatever life circumstances get in the way of living, I could potentially accumulate enough points over they years to point out of advanced. Being forced to move up to masters at that point would effectively put me out of pattern.

Here is the irony of the current system; during most of my hiatus/partial retirement from pattern, I have had a reasonably competitive pattern plane at my disposal but no time for serious practice, all the while someone on this list, (who shall remain nameless) was busting my chops about not going to contests for the sheer joy of coming in near the bottom but enjoying the atmosphere. Part of the reason I didn't go was for fear of being just good enough to earn enough points over my grad school years to point out of advanced without ever having mastered any of the techniques necessary to safely move to masters. So it can reasonably be said that forced advancement kept me from competing.

Of the chop busting list member, his name rhymes with Ark Matwood!

I wonder how many points Tom Weedon has? If he comes to the shoot out this year we will have to make sure we register him for masters :o)

--- On Wed, 5/13/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> wrote:

From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 3:33 PM

I’m not really arguing with you on that point.  There’s little need to change more than once a season.  Like I said, there’s little need to change period.  This only happens once in a while.  So seldom in fact, I just feel that there’s no need for a rule at all.  Rather than try to anticipate all the likely scenarios that may or may not occur, just let people fly what they want to fly, and see what happens.  I think you’ll find that the VAST VAST majority do nothing different than today, a few will do as you suggest…change the class they’re in for the season.  But there could be some odd circumstance that warrants something different.    Is this “Sport” so critical to anyone that we need to legislate against it??  

Like I said earlier…it’s working well for FAI/Masters.  Fewer rules are better in my opinion and this is one that’s just not needed.  

From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 3:23 PM
To: aabdu at sbcglobal.net; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

You're supposed to go from winning Intermediate to bringing up the rear in Advanced, that's the basic idea of moving up.  If everyone stayed in Intermediate until they could win Advanced, then we'd be arguing to keep forced advancement......Do you want/need to go back to Intermediate?  If the rule was that you had to fly a declared class or higher for a season, how would circumstances of life changes over "5 or 6 seasons" come into play.....Without forced advancement, you could start the season in Sporstman every year if you need to.....I'm still not sure what scenarios could occur within a single 5 or 6 month contest season that would necessitate someone moving from Advanced to back to Sportsman in the middle of that season.

If you've practiced all winter 3-4 times a week in Advanced, flown two contests, and then change jobs, or lose an airplane mid-season and can no longer practice regulary, is anyone going to move back to Intermediate?  Sequences only change in the off-season, not sure why that would cause anyone to have to move down during a single season?  If I flew Masters last year, and was scared to fly a new Masters sequence for some reason, then I could declare for Advanced in the upcoming season....

Richard

________________________________

From:Anthony Abdullah <aabdu at sbcglobal.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:40:34 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement
Gotta agree with Mark on that one. I went from winning the district championship in Intermediate to bringing up the rear in Advanced. Other than being a hack of a pilot it was a matter of circumstance. I started and finished graduate school, we lost my primary and conveniently located flying field, I changed jobs, and then when I thought I was all set for a great come back year, I lost my primary competition plane early in the spring. This was all over the course of 5 or 6 seasons and the sequence changed at least once during that time. 

Mind you, I have not quite pointed out of advanced but I can certainly understand how a change in circumstances can change a person's ability to be competitive in a certain class.

Anthony
NSRCA #759

--- On Wed, 5/13/09, Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> wrote:
From: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement
To: "'nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 12:27 PM
Has this caused a problem beteen FAI and Masters?  People are free to move about
there and it works well.  I doubt there would be constant movement. 

Regarding moving back, it has less to do ith ability or age (though those are
both factors) than situation.  Simply changing jobs can take you from being able
to practice 3-4 times a week, to 3-4 time a summer. Add a new sequence to that
mix and suddenly your ability to participate in the higher class is gone. 

I just don't see the problems with movement. There's so little in
FAI/Masters that's its
 hard to believe there would be a lot in lower
classes. 
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

----- Original Message -----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wed May 13 12:12:56 2009
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

I disagree that we should make it so that people can move from class-to-class
on a contest-by-contest basis.  If we remove forced advancement, then we
elimitate the problem of people being forced into a class they feel they are not
ready for.  That, by itself, solves the problem that may cause someone to
"need" or "want" to move back a class
 after
"trying" it out and finding they are not "ready" (meaning
they cannot win it on the first try????).  Folks will know if they are ready to
fly the next level, the sequences are not secret and can be practiced/flown by
anyone on their own time.  In order to cause them to consider their decision
carefully, they should be required to stay a minimum of a season in their chosen
class (move up if they like, not down)...If after that seaon, they want to
swallow their pride and move back, so be it....a season, even in the southern
districts is only 5 or 6 contests at most for most pilots. 
Now if we are considering an older flyer who may not have the skills/ability to
compete in Masters any longer, that's a different story, and what I've
read and heard from MAsters pilots, once a person flies for some time as
 a
Masters pilot, they are just not gonna swallow their pride and move back to
Intermediate, no matter how easy it may be... 
If we are considering the flier who tops out at Advanced and want to stay there
permanently.  No forcred advancment solve that one too....

   _____  

From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:26:50 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

I’m in favor of it being a guideline, but I don’t think that verbiage
belongs in the rule book.  That’s best left for the NSRCA web site or some
other medium to describe.

As for moving down, that’s sort of the whole point.  To allow people to
choose where they want to fly, up or down the classes as their time, skill, etc
allows.   By nature you have to be competitive to enjoy this facet of the hobby.
 If you find yourself in a situation where you are no longer competitive,
(again, lack of time, money, skill, etc) then most will simply get frustrated
and quit.  I’d much prefer to see someone take a step backward, and continue
to have a rewarding experience, than to lose them from the sport.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 7:01 AM
To: 'General pattern
 discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

I’m in favor of making advancement a guideline.  Perhaps we need to cover
advancement as part of good sportsmanship and maybe include the ability for the
district to vote on whether someone is abusing the absence of a mandatory
advancement rule.  For example, leave it to the discretion of the District VP or
a majority vote of the district members.  If the district decides someone needs
to move up the competitor would have the option to stay where he or she is and
not qualify for prizes and district points or move up at the end of the year.

What about the ability to move down?  For example, someone tries Masters for
one or two contests and then decides they are still not
 ready and wants to move
back down.  Do the current rules properly address this?

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
ronlock at comcast.net
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 8:12 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

Years ago when the Sportsman sequence was rather short, some CD's were
doing the sequence twice.   A rule was written to codify the practice, and
provide suggested procedures on exit/entry between the sequences, and handle
scoring of one take off & landing, but two sequences.  It's still in
 the
book,  para 14.8.   Given current length of Sportsman sequence, it's rarely
used.

Ron Lockhart

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill's Email" <wemodels at cox.net>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:37:29 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] WRAP UP - Advancement

Snaproll4 at aol.com wrote: 

CD's used to have the ability to have Sportsman fly twice which isn't
in the rule book.  They now can have an Expert class which isn't in the rule
book.  Can CD's suspend the advancement rule?  Just thinking out loud.

Steve 

Interesting question. The AMA
 gives CDs broad powers to waive rules as they see
fit, but those usually pertain to the safe operation of a contest. The caveat is
that the CD must publish any variations within 30 days of the event and it is
best to list them in the sanction application. Changes can be made on the spot
due to weather, etc., but it would be hard to see how advancement fits into
that. So I suspect taht it would be difficult for a CD to do waht you suggest.
What a CD could do I suppose is to allow a certain individual to fly a lower
class, but again, that might be a stretch.

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