[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Mon May 11 10:46:26 AKDT 2009

Not confusion - just a few different things going on at once. :) The original discussion was on putting a 3 horizontal roll "maneuver" into the Intermediate sequence where there is currently a 2-roll maneuver. This led to a reference to the older sequences that had 3-roll and even 3-loop maneuvers in the lower classes. I tried to prove my point: an Intermediate pilot may have a problem doing 3 nice, well controlled rolls without breaking the box on a turnaround unless the turnarounds where properly chosen to provide more room. I did this by pointing out the fact that I've seen many Masters pilots have trouble with the 2 of 2 + slow roll reversed (it looks rushed). Not the same maneuver but the same basic problem: it's easy to get into a rushed situation if you're not careful. 

And remember, this whole thing started out with a simple question: "Is the Masters schedule too long?" LOL

John Pavlick

--- On Mon, 5/11/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote:

From: George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 6:19 PM

John,

I think there is some confusion here. 

I can't find any reference to three consecutive rolls in the curent Master's schedule, however, there is a three roll opposite in P-09. 

The maneuver currently being considered was in the old Intermediate schedule and was three rolls performed consecutively, no reversals, just keep it constantly rotating 
until the completion of the third element.

Most individuals used to set up their airframes so that full aileron deflection would result in the airplane performing three rolls in approximately five seconds. This roll rate was 
slow enough to allow a normal human being to keep up with the thought processes required to input the necessary corrections required to result in the roll appearing axial.

At this roll rate, an airplane traveling approximately 60 mph used up somewhere in the neighborhood of 440 feet of horizontal travel.  The distance between the poles at
150 meters is around 1575 feet, so you can see that this leaves about 567 feet before you even started the roll to get set up and a similar recovery distance after roll
completion. 

Now I realize that the rule book says that it may be appropriate to fly a smaller model in closer ( I think it references 140-130 meters) so the distance shortens significantly
as you move in, but even at just 100 meters the breathing room on each end is still over 300 feet, so it should be apparrent that space is really not a limiting factor.

With regards the three rolls opposite in P-09, it's a totally different bag of worms. For me, it requires that I slow the rate down even further because my old brain can't keep
up with all those reversing inputs, so for me, this one uses quite a bit of the box.

Jim, correct me on stuff I screwed up here.

Georgie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Pavlick 
To: General pattern discussion 
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

What schedule are we talking about? I thought it was the Masters schedule. 

John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: George W.Kennie 
To: General pattern discussion 
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

John,

Remember, the maneuver is performed after a previous box exit.  So, you enter the box, have all day to set up for it, and you're only doing  1 & 1/2  rolls either side of center. I've seen guys use this much space doing the current 2 point with a significant hesitation.

Archie is right on the money. That's the reason I use the old, old  Intermediate schedule to train newbies. If I can get 'em thru this thing, then the current schedules are duck soup for them.  It's like practicing the P-09 and then going to a contest and flying Sportsman. 

G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Pavlick 
To: General pattern discussion 
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Georgie,
Did you ever see anyone REALLY grease that maneuver? I haven't. It ALWAYS looks rushed. And these are Masters pilots. Big difference between them and Intermediate pilots. The only way it would work is if both turnarounds (before and after the maneuver) were something like a stall turn or a half square loop. Anything else would be tough for an Intermediate pilot.

John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: George W.Kennie 
To: General pattern discussion 
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Isn't it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two of Two folowed by a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including entry and exit lines, and people still think that you can't get three consecutive rolls in the box.

Stymies me !

Who else? 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Glen Watson 
To: 'General pattern discussion' 
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Chuck,

In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the Sportsman sequence now known as Intermediate had three rolls.  I flew 2cycle then (Saphire, LA-1) and had no problem fitting the maneuver in the box as well as centering.  I believe this built many early skill sets that have helped me in the long run over the years.

I’m of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges to ones current skill set.  Without a challenge why do pattern at all.

Glen

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hochhalter
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Anyone notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don’t think they lower class has the box management skills to fit 3 rolls into the box, let alone be ready to center them.

Chuck

From: ronlock at comcast.net 

Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 9:25 PM

To: General pattern discussion 

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Re comments below-
I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has two rolls, and not three, is-
Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most intermediate pilots -
And two is enough for judging-   Particularly, if you see two going badly, not many of us
want to see a third.

Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year because of beating 4 other pilots -
That is already fixed.  The 2009 rule  "..flier must move out of Sportsman class at the end of he calendar year of his/her second or subsequent year of participation if he/she places first or second and above at least 4 other fliers..."

Ron Lockhart

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
To: " General pattern discussion " <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
I’ve been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4.  The two rolls are still kicking my you know what.  I can do one slow roll and one 4 pt roll but not two consecutive rolls.  I’m certain that the average advance pilot would really have trouble with 3 rolls.  I see a lot of intermediate, advanced and sometimes even masters pilots almost loose airplanes on the horizontal rolling maneuvers.  They shouldn’t be underestimated.

I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a guideline.  I had to move up from sportsman to intermediate after my first year in sportsman because I beat 4 other pilots.  I was flying a Kaos and the other pilots were all flying their 1st contests with trainers.  They had no chance.  In the end I’m glade I moved up but at the time it made me real nervous.  I was so determined to fly pattern that I decided to give it the old college try in intermediate.

I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit inverted.  Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.

Ron 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

There is a provision in the current rule set to accomodate these situations, see 8.1.2 of the competition regulations....

Richard

From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Bob,
I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my daughter got sick and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My flying has regressed, and my confidence along with it. 
Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: " General pattern discussion " <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

I know you’re joking some Bob, but I think you’re actually a great example of someone that was able to fly a lot, and progressed nicely through the system, but then when you got to Masters…a time when you really need to practice even more to be competitive, your job suddenly changed,  home life became more complex, and you’re lucky to fly 10 practice flights a year outside of contests.   Your experience and skill would allow you to be competitive in Advanced, without dominating and likely have a lot more fun being a spoiler to that crowd, rather than trying to fly masters without hardly even knowing the pattern.

You’re the perfect candidate for someone that should be able to choose where they fly (which pattern) and have the most enjoyment.  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Hey, I resemble that remark . . . . . . .

Bob Kane
getterflash at yahoo.com

From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Cc: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at suddenlink.net>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't  really care who beat me when I was in intermediate or advanced. I just knew that I was seeing the skill level necessary to win. While it's nice to win a trophy in the lower classes, I understood I wasn't competing against the best pilots anyway.  From what I've seen there is a huge variation of talent within a class anyway. I've seen Masters pilots fly that wouldn't win in advanced if they bumped back down (maybe not even in intermediate). People move up for all kinds of reasons unrelated to skill level.  It's also interesting that we talk about using each class to improve our flying until we get to Masters, then it appears nobody wants to improve to FAI. 

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